The Intolerance of The “Tolerant” Emergents, And Their Leaven

Galatians 5:9, “A little leaven leavens the whole lump.

You can’t really maintain a good discussion or “conversation” with many emergents, if you are someone who believes in the infallibility and trustworthiness of all of God’s word, and that it is the sole authority for our faith and practice. Emergents reject that belief, and the most intolerant ones will more than likely vilify you for claiming this. The true emergent rejoices in “doubt”, and “mystery”, and takes pride in the idea that we can’t truly ever understand the Bible; and so their conclusion is: let us be compassionate, understanding, and be open to anyone who has any kind of idea about the scriptures.  Now that idea on the face of it, is not a problem for them; it only becomes a problem when they find out that you refuse to budge on a particular doctrine. That’s when their true colors show, because these people are blinded to their own intolerance and cry about how they are being persecuted. Yet if you disagree with them, they have no problems calling and threatening other pastors and leaders with the sole purpose of running them over with their own church bus, which of course has love in big letters printed on the side.

Over at NazNet, which also welcomes non-Nazarenes into their discussions, that is how many of them (not all) operate.  In the past, I have called NazNet “a breeding ground for emergent heresy.”  Frankly, it should be an embarrassment to the Church of the Nazarene, at least much of it.  Not all who are members of NazNet are emergent, as I am a member myself, and there are others who do battle with them on a regular basis.  But if you read some of their writings and opinions and you are not an emergent, chances are you would agree with my description, at least in the things many of them espouse.

Here’s what one pastor recently said, in a discussion that mentioned Christian universities and what their role should be.  This was also in the context of several of these emergents ripping apart a Nazarene elder for daring to criticize some things going on in our universities.

“That’s just what a good educational system does, equips their students to be able to think and operate for themselves in the real world and lets them fully own their decisions, not bend them to a certain view.


A second pastor followed with this:

“Yes there is a vast difference between education and indoctrination. It seems as if there is a growing segment of our church that simply would rather our students not be educated but rather indoctrinated. “

Translation: let’s expose our students to just about everything and anything, without any biblical guidance whatsoever. Let’s bring in false teachers like Brian McLaren and Jay McDaniel, allow them to expose (indoctrinate?) our students to false ideas, and then let them walk away unchallenged by anyone.  They seem to be okay with that scenario.

Ponder hearing something like: “Hey, I’m really proud of my student.  He fully owns his own decisions.  Yes, I know he doubts that Adam and Eve were real, or he strongly believes that we should bring worldly practices into the church to make the gospel more relevant and hip.  And yes, he even believes that his Hindu friend will probably go to heaven without ever coming to repentance and faith in Christ.  But so what?  He arrived at that conclusion on his own- so who am I to correct him?”

Yes, believe me, that is their mindset.  Many of them are pastors, the shepherds of their flock.  They don’t really believe that a Christian university should try too hard to keep their students down the narrow path that Jesus wants us to go down.  They don’t think it matters that Christian universities expose their students to a variety of heretical speakers.  Oh no, they might say, let’s not shut them off from the world and isolate them.  Let’s let them hear what crazy things Brian McLaren teaches, and I’m sure they won’t fall for his heretical ideology.

Truly, they seem to take pride in this sort of “hands off” mentality, and would rather take the chance and let the student decide to go down the wide path of destruction, as long as they made that decision themselves.  So much for the uncompromising, godly training they received at home from their parents.  Well, too bad, this is their chance now to grow up and make adult decisions.  So what if it’s a fatal one, spiritually speaking.

The pastor continued:

“This has certainly always been the case in the church, but what concerns me uniquely about the internet age is the rapidity with which information is spread and the way in which blogs, facebook, and other mediums draw in large numbers of lay people that would otherwise be unaware, and who do not fully understand the issues involved. As such the whole issue becomes an intensely emotional one in which the fears of the masses are whipped up to serve the agenda of a smallish group of people who would like to take the church in a fundamentalist direction.”

This pastor says “other wise be unaware” and “who do not fully understand the issues involved.” In other words, “we emergents understand the issues fully, but no one else does.” They are the enlightened ones.  They are like the Gnostics of old.  They have a special, hidden knowledge- so would the rest of us please, just shut up and listen!  And this comes from people whose philosophy tells us that we can’t really understand the Bible, that it’s a mystery, that there are many ways to read it.  (Perhaps even John 3:16 is not what it seems!)  Yet, when they get confronted, whether its by me, or by a highly educated theologian or pastor who happens to disagree with them, they lump us all in the same categories: ignorant, intolerant, hateful, lacking true insight, and uneducated.  Oh, and apparently if they have an inking that you may be a fundamentalist, that’s evil also.

So that was not just one emergent pastor’s opinion, friends.  This is a reflection of most of them.  I know these people.  I know how they think.  After almost two years of research into the emergent movement, and then banging heads with them on their blogs, I know them well.

Their primary tactic is to demonize any and all opposition, because they cannot defend their positions biblically. And I mean demonize anyone.  They have already dismissed me as someone who lacks the theological training and advanced degrees.  Yet, when someone with theological training and advanced degrees confronts their false teaching, what do they do?  They treat him just like me.  In other words, they are hypocrites, they don’t care what your background is.  They will shred you to pieces if they feel threatened in any way.  Picture a wounded animal caught in the corner of the room with nowhere to go, and that’s how an emergent looks like when he is confronted with biblical truth.

My tactic is this: to present the facts of their belief system, and pray that people will decide for themselves- on the sole basis of “does this comport with biblical doctrine?”  There should be no other measuring stick we ought to use.  None whatsoever.  But they don’t believe that, so there is no starting point of agreement.  Since they cannot confess that the Bible is the inspired, inerrant word of God, there is really no point in going forward with long discussions with them.  It would be a waste of time, because they are entrenched in the “religion of man.”  In other words, they are post-modern.  They are the intellectual elite.  They are full of pride, these people, and will continue in their elitist, intimidating, and sometimes threatening ways unless they repent.

And so to you Christian parents who may be sending your children to “Christian” colleges, watch out.  These same, misguided emergents on Naznet and other emergent liberal blogs, who speak of tolerance out of one side of their mouth, and then hurl vicious attacks on Bible believing Christians and even respected elders in the church, are invading your schools.  They have infiltrated our Christian universities, and future misguided emergents are being taught in our seminaries now, preparing for the next wave of Bible-doubting pastors in your town.  A friend of mine recently told me of the difficulty of finding a good teacher for a private Christian school, who has not drunk the coolaide of emergent heresy.  These are clearly dangerous times, and you can’t even trust anymore some of the most trusted evangelicals from the past, because even some of them have turned towards the mystical, “let’s experience God” fad.

Rest assured, these emergents will continue on, exposing themselves everyday.  They are living double lives, venting amongst themselves and showing their rage at Bible believers on their blogs, and then saying just the right words in the pulpit on Sunday mornings to fool the congregation.  You sure won’t hear them preaching about the “almost” perfect word of God on Sunday.  They won’t dare elaborate on their corrupted theologies.  Instead, as I have mentioned before, their modus operandi is by stealth.  Mix in a little leaven ever so slowly.  And sadly, some people don’t worry about a small bit of poison.

After all, what’s the harm in that, right?

(For related articles, see:   NazNet Pastors And their Dubious Ideology, NazNet: A Good Example of Bad Emergent Ideology, What Do Emergents Believe: A Review)

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41 responses to “The Intolerance of The “Tolerant” Emergents, And Their Leaven

  1. The big problem with Naz Net is they have manufactured a jesus out of parts of the bible they like to believe.
    They do not believe in the whole council of God (many of them do not).
    The problem when you want to pick and choose is that we cant talk to people if they dont believe the whole of scripture.
    Sorry there is no real starting point here.
    And many times they do not even read what we write by when we put out articles it is documented in scripture and fact.
    They rarely if ever call us out on scripture because they just cant go there.
    So they really have developed their own jesus and their own gospel which is not based on the whole of scripture making it the religion of man.
    The whole social justice thing is a laugh.
    They assume we dont do anything with the poor, never been in a soup kitchen serving and pretty much dont care.
    Thats a lie because they dont know us or what we are involved in because we are not out there bragging about (because scripture cautions us not to do that).
    The social justice movement is based on the liberal agenda of redistribution of wealth and all of this is done without presenting the gospel (even though some within may share the gospel).
    The social justice movement has nothing to do with the Jesus of the Bible and is simply another branch of dominionism.
    Plus they will say love, love love and lets bless those who persecute us.
    While totally ignoring how we are treated.
    Yes the church bus they run over pastors and leaders with may say WE LOVE JESUS on the side.
    But its still being run over by the bus because we simply disagree.
    And it doesnt matter if you are nice about it or bold and passionate.
    If you disagree the term hate speech( or something similar) immediatly gets used.
    They want to beat down our warnings while furthering their agenda.
    That is of the devil and I have no problem stating that.
    When Hans wrote myself and Manny he totally ducked the main point of what we were stating (mostly me).
    No point in talking to these folks.
    We need to just share the true Gospel of Jesus Christ, encourage new believers to read Gods Word and be nurtured and feed in a good bible believing church, and we need to continue to warn folks about the deception and stuff non believers like Brian Mclaren continue to espouse.
    Brian states he loves Jesus while he shouts he hates God.
    Some Naz Net folks state they Love Jesus but then shout they hate his Word.

  2. If anyone is interested in reading the rest of that thread, to see the context for the quoted portions above, it can be found at:

    http://www.naznet.com/community/showthread.php?1276-Letter-from-Orville-Jenkins-Jr.

    I hope, Manny, that you see me as one of the “(not all)” from the beginning of your second paragraph. I hope that I have exhibited grace, humility, and a willingness to listen in all of my conversations with you.

    (For those who don’t know, I’m an ordained Nazarene elder serving as senior pastor for 10 years now, a regular participant on NazNet, and would probably be labeled “partly-emergent” or something.)

  3. This is your best post Manny!!!

    Thank you for speaking the truth as Paul did to the Galatians.

    Galatians 1:6-10

    6I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— 7which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ.

    8But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! 9As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

    10 Am I now trying to win the approval of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still trying to please men, I would not be a servant of Christ.

  4. Rich,
    You have always been considerate, and respectful- even when you think I’m wrong!

    I have appreciated that.
    Manny

  5. Rich Schmidt,

    You disagree with the grace of a statesman. Thank you for being wise in these discussions.

    Thank you for not walking away or trying to flame issues.

    Pam

  6. I made a correction in my post. There were actually two separate commentators that I quoted- so I edited the post to show that.

    On another note, I decided a while ago that spending time discussing theology with anyone who does not acknowledge that God’s word is clearly God’s word, and that it is inerrant in all it teaches, is generally a waste of time.

    I might spend time witnessing to them, but I will not go into arguments when we don’t even have that starting point of agreement.

  7. Ok so Rich is nice and polite. That’s great but he is just as mislead as many from naz net.

    Check out what Rich says over at naz net
    (Posted by Steve Reece
    I was pretty fundamentalist in the 90s. Had I not been in conversation with people more graceful than I, I would today likely find myself right at home with the destructive behavior and doctrine being talked about here. Hans, you were part of that conversation, as was Barbara, Dennis (in person at NTS, what I pain I was early on in his class), and others here on NazNet, CRIVoice, and at NTS for the short time I attended.)

    Rich then says-
    That’s the same reason that I continue to try to have constructive conversations with Manny and others on his blog. Because my story is much the same. I thank God for those (particularly at ONU, then also at NTS) who were gracious with me as I was learning more about the Bible, Christian history, theology, etc. — learning those things that provide the much-needed context for better understanding what the Bible says, what we believe, where we fit in the broader Christian family, etc.end quote

    Sorry folks Rich is a nice guy but he is here to deceive.
    He is here to convince you that your position is wrong.
    These guys are thanking God they unlearned scripture and were deceived.

    CRI Voice-Dennis Bratcher-are you kidding me that guy has no clue what scripture teaches and promotes this article-
    Bratcher on NazNet: “Dr. Tashjian also presented an expanded version of that article at a Wesleyan Theological Society meeting (The Death of Jesus: Historically Contingent or Divinely Ordained?). That has remained online the entire time and has received almost no complaint except from predestinarian Southern Baptists.

    One of the crucial factors in such situations (and those to which I referred earlier) that tends to get ignored is the qualifications of those who are speaking. Dr. Tashjian has spent most of his ministry in education, including teaching and supervising a school in Jordan. He has pastored, spent eight years as a missionary in Taiwan, and earned a PhD in New Testament studies from a top level school. He is an expert in New Testament Greek, specializes in Jesus studies, and has authored articles and commentaries on the Gospels. That does not make him right. But it gives him some authority to speak from an informed position without being subjected to attacks from a DS with, I suspect, far less qualifications to speak on the topic (the same can be said for J. K. Warrick’s attack on Dr. Tashjian and SNU for the same response in HT).”
    end comment

    Dr. Tashjian’s article is straight up heresy but we should believe Dr Tashjian because he is educated?
    Tashjian has no idea what God’s Word teaches, his article shows that.
    Plus we should not believe JK Warrick because he doesn’t have the education to give a good response?
    What?
    Don’t fall for this ploy.
    The apostles except for Paul were simple men hardly any education at all.
    Surely not stupid though because they were taught by Jesus.
    Rich may be a nice guy and that’s great.
    But don’t believe what he has to say. Look again at his statement on why he is here.
    Come on folks wake up.

    Don’t fall for this deception.
    In my opinion Dennis Bratcher is a false teacher because of what he writes and promotes.
    Dennis does not rightly divide the word of God.
    Rich may just be deceived but don’t believe him.
    Read Rich’s words again.
    Read it in context on why he is here.

    He may be a nice wolf.
    But he is still a wolf.
    Tim

  8. Thanks, Manny and Pam.

    Tim, I’m not a wolf, and I’m not here to deceive. But of course I believe that the perspective I have on things today is better than the perspective I had on things 15-20 years ago. :) I’ve learned a lot since then. I’ve grown “in wisdom… and in favor with God and men” quite a bit since then. (I haven’t grown in stature… just waistline!)

    Hopefully that’s true of all of us. (except for the waistline part)

    I’m not hiding anything from anyone. I’d be happy for anyone here to go read that thread (or any other thread) at NazNet. That’s why I linked to it in my first comment.

    What you see as me being “nice,” I see as God having dramatically worked in my heart over the years, softening my heart toward others, helping me learn to listen graciously to them. You don’t know what an arrogant jerk I used to be in my younger days. Nothing over the top, I suppose, and nothing that most people would have seen. But I thought I knew better than everyone else. I thought my conclusions were airtight, and that anyone who didn’t agree with me just wasn’t reading the Bible or wasn’t thinking clearly or thoroughly.

    But eventually, as I learned more about the Bible (learning Greek, Hebrew, historical context, etc. — reading the Bible more closely than I’d been able to before), I discovered that some of my conclusions were wrong. Some things that I thought were black were in fact white, while others were green or red or blue. I learned that I didn’t know as much as I thought I did.

    I also came to have close friends who were from different Christian traditions. And I read books by scholars from Christian traditions other than my own. And I discovered that they were thinking just as clearly and thoroughly as I was! They had good, biblical reasons for viewing things they way they did. That didn’t make them right and me wrong, but it did mean that they weren’t the idiots I thought they were, and it meant they weren’t ignoring Scripture.

    These were some of the experiences God used to gradually change my heart toward others and to help me develop the humility I needed. I thank God for his patience with me.

    Sorry this comment got so long! :)

  9. I do not want people to think I hate Rich.
    I do not.
    Again I think Rich appears to be a very nice polite guy.
    But according to Rich’s own words he is hear to win people to his cause.
    Why is Gods Word through the guidance of the Holy Spirit not enough.
    I am not against education the apostle Paul was educated and he was a wonderful witness for the Lord.
    Paul was so good Emergents and others constantly try to rewrite or rediscover Paul by their own distorted and rewritten view of history.
    Many Nazarene and other colleges are dashing people faith on the rocks by their distortion of Gods Word and deconstructing scripture.
    We can feel sorry for those who have been deceived that doesn’t mean we don’t call a spade a spade.
    We also need to show Christs love for those who are deceived.
    But scripture teaches us to separate from false teachers and the deceived.
    Titus 3:10-11

    “10 Reject a divisive man after the first and second admonition, 11 knowing that such a person is warped and sinning, being self-condemned.
    We often view a divisive man as a mean and nasty person.
    They don’t always come wrapped that way.
    Tim

  10. Rich you are a very nice guy who shows great manners.
    You may be self deceived or just a product of bad teaching. I do not know.
    I have yet to see a wolf who will admit they are a wolf.
    I do pray for you Rich
    Tim

  11. I think studying Greek and Hebrew is a very interesting thing.
    But where is the burden of the Holy Spirit to lead us into all truth (all our agendas aside of course)?
    Does the Holy Spirit understand Greek and Hebrew?
    Cant the Holy Spirit lead a willing mind ( and I know some observing the battle would say I do not have a open or willing mind-but I do open and willing to Gods teaching and correction).
    Cant I depend on the Holy Spirit alone to lead me into all truth?
    John 16:12-15

    12 “I have yet many things to say to you, but you cannot bear them now.13 When the Spirit of truth comes, he will guide you into all the truth; for he will not speak on his own authority, but whatever he hears he will speak, and he will declare to you the things that are to come. 14 He will glorify me, for he will take what is mine and declare it to you. 15 All that the Father has is mine; therefore I said that he will take what is mine and declare it to you.”

    What would you give to know all truth! Truth, is not something we create or is it our discovery. It is the gift of God who is the possessor and the giver of all truth. Jesus tells his disciples that it is the role of the Holy Spirit to reveal what is true. How can this be? Skeptics of truth don’t want to believe in an absolute Truth. If truth is objective then it must be submitted to as authoritative. Some fear the truth because they think it will inhibit their freedom. Jesus told his disciples that the truth will set you free (John 8:32).The truth liberates us from doubts, illusions, and fears. Since God is the source of all truth, then the closer we draw to him and listen to his word, the more we grow in the knowledge of him and of his great love and wisdom for us. Jesus told his disciples that he would send them the Spirit of truth who will announce to you the things to come. Through the Holy Spirit, we proclaim our ancient faith in the saving death and resurrection of Christ until he comes again. The Lord gives us his Holy Spirit as our divine Teacher and Helper that we may grow in the knowledge and wisdom of God. Do people seek the wisdom that comes from above?
    Do you willingly obey God’s word?
    This is always my prayer.

    “Lord Jesus, fill me with your Holy Spirit and guide me into your way of truth. Free me from erroneous and false ways and lead me in the knowledge of your ways and your will for my life. May there be nothing in my life that is not under your lordship.”

    This is not a reformation thing.
    It is a biblical thing.
    Sincerely in Christ
    Tim

  12. Tim, the prayer that you prayed is one that every Nazarene pastor I know would happily pray… including the “emergent” ones.

    Just this past Sunday I was reminding our congregation that we’re to love God with all of our MIND as well as our heart, soul, and strength. I continually encourage them to study the Bible, to allow the Spirit of God to speak to them and shape their lives as they read it. And then at last night’s church board meeting, in the midst of giving me candid feedback, both positive and negative, one of the board members remarked that something she and her husband have always appreciated about my preaching is how Bible-centered it is.

    Just tossing that out there, since (as far as I know) none of you live close enough to me to know me, my preaching, or my church apart from comments like these. Sometimes I feel like I need to reassure you that I really do love God, believe the Bible, and submit to the Lordship of Jesus Christ. :)

    Your words about “wisdom that comes from above” reminded me of James 3.

    “Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show it by his good life, by deeds done in the humility that comes from wisdom. 14 But if you harbor bitter envy and selfish ambition in your hearts, do not boast about it or deny the truth. 15 Such “wisdom” does not come down from heaven but is earthly, unspiritual, of the devil. 16 For where you have envy and selfish ambition, there you find disorder and every evil practice.

    17 But the wisdom that comes from heaven is first of all pure; then peace-loving, considerate, submissive, full of mercy and good fruit, impartial and sincere. 18 Peacemakers who sow in peace raise a harvest of righteousness.”

    That “wisdom that comes from heaven” is the type of wisdom I want to have and display.

  13. Rich what you state here contradicts much of what you say,portray, and agree with at NazNet.
    You can’t pray that prayer and then preach Emergent theology among the other heresy coming out of your camp.
    Sorry Rich you are either deceived or are a liar.
    Just a question for you do you agree with what is written in Dennis Bratcher’s post that Manny posted above on Jesus’s death.
    The link agrees with much of the heretical Jesus Seminar.
    What are your thoughts on the article?
    Tim

  14. I haven’t read the article by Dr. Tashjian (neither the version on Dennis Bratcher’s website nor the expanded version presented to the WTS), so I can’t comment either way. Maybe I can read it while on vacation later this week.

    You’ll have to help me out with the other part, Tim. What have I said, here or elsewhere, that contradicts what I said in my last post?

  15. Rick stated “You’ll have to help me out with the other part, Tim. What have I said, here or elsewhere, that contradicts what I said in my last post?’

    Rich read my post again you are missing what I stated.

    How do you guys make comments on either site without reading the information provided for in the string.
    No wonder you folks get deceived

    Trust me we read what ever is presented in a string and then compare it not to what we think but to what scripture clearly teaches.
    Its not about man made religion but what God teaches in scripture.
    Tim
    Tim

  16. Sorry, Tim. When you said: “Rich what you state here contradicts much of what you say,portray, and agree with at NazNet,” I thought that “what you state here” was a reference to my last post.

    I’m not aware of contradictions in anything I’ve said, wherever I’ve said it. You say there’s a contradiction. I’m just asking you to point out the contradiction so I can see it and respond to it.

    I certainly don’t see a contradiction between that prayer and anything *I* have said. I guess I shouldn’t try to speak for others.

  17. Sorry Rich there is not enough space to go into that here.
    The point being you (and others James Diggs for one) will agree with much of what we say that is truely orthodox and then the ideology and theology you promote here and other sites such as Naz Net are in direct conflict and contradiction with what you agree with here.
    Much like Word Faith preachers who put up a great statement of faith on their website (such as Ken Copeland, Benny Hinn) and then there teaching is in direct conflict with the very statements of faith they post.
    Rick Warren is the exact same way.
    Orthodox statement of faith followed by false teaching and promotion of false teachers.
    Bottom line is I credability.
    I dont believe what they say.
    I dont believe you truely believe with much you agree with here.
    Your many comments and promotion’s (Your promotion of Willow Creek for one) are in direct conflict of much of what you add here.
    PS Rich the constant smiley faces dont make your comments any less false.
    Tim

  18. It’s clear that talking about things only makes them worse. If you say nothing then it seems as you give an unspoken endorsement.

    Yesterday I was reading posts on Naznet. Umm, well they don’t think there is a problem. Rich truly believes everything is good.

    I cling to Jesus and his words. That may seem like a weakness to many but Jesus is the only hope for me.

  19. Hey Pam: Its always good to talk about things when we are concerned about the same problems.
    It sometimes has to get worse before it gets better.
    Blessings
    Tim

  20. Tim, I don’t want to give you or Manny any grief, but Naznet is freaky and I think I’m going to be ill for a long time.

    If those are NTS grads and pastors, Wow, Wow, Wow, no wonder they are so weird in the pulpit.

    They have been given or have taken enough rope to hang themselves many times over. When I was suggesting that Naz Leadership talk to people about their concerns I wasn’t suggesting that people talk to the NazNet leadership. That is a train wreck in progress and it seems there are no solutions in the plans or in the near future.

    They clearly see the issue(s) as a age – generation gap. They scoffed at people who were 60 years old in leadership because they could clearly not understand their “young intelligent educated post-modern minds”. Understanding and reading Koinonia Greek or OT Hebrew doesn’t make you a Christian.

    It is a Biblical vs Secular issue and it’s not going away anytime soon.

    If you confront them they will play the victim card. If you leave them alone they will play the rebellious card. It is a disaster waiting to happen and they will blame the everyone in the vicinity but themselves. I’ll bet a buck on that one.

  21. Pam,
    I agree. It is a train wreck there, and it is amazing what these pastors write, including a total disrespect for the infallibility of God’s word. You will never hear the true emergents testifying to that fact.

    I generally would not recommend anyone to spend too much time there. I don’t do that either, and when I do go there, I know exactly what to expect. There are some things that have recently been said now, and a year ago, i would have responded. But no longer do I do that, no matter how vicious they get. I’ll let them continue to deceive themselves; praying that God will open their eyes.

    I have developed a rather thick skin, so I have given myself permission to read their site now and then, and if needed, expose them by using their own words.

    But most people, I would advise- don’t try this at home! Not good for your health.

  22. Hi Pam: Ditto on what Manny says.
    Because of what they say over at Naz net it would be a real stretch to believe that some of them are even Christians.
    There are many people that say they are Christians.
    If you went door to door I would suggest the majority of folks would state they are Christian’s or at least believer’s.
    Jesus stated in Matt 7:13-20

    “13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because[a] narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it.”

    You Will Know Them by Their Fruits

    “15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

    We know that the way means the road we travel after we are saved.
    So for those who refer to us as narrow minded I would say a big AMEN
    Tim

  23. Few Emergents have bothered to deny the Bible itself, they just misquote it, abuse its meaning, force their opinion on it, and if necessary mistranslate it to give the appearance that the Scriptures are backing their claims.

    This is my perspective on the Emergent way of tolerance.

  24. Why bother to deny the Bible when you can just ignore it? I just finished reading “Is There Room at the Table? Emerging Christians in the Church of the Nazarene.” It was a white paper presented to the Board of Generals in May of 2009 by a group of self proclaimed emergents. The authors were Dr. James Hampton, and reverends Brian Hull, Jon Middendorf , Jim Wicks, Tevis Austin, and Dave Charlton. It was 51 pages with 67 footnotes, and not a single verse of Scripture cited in defense of their stance.

  25. I would like the faculty at Nazarene Theological Seminary and Nazarene schools to post their Doctoral Theses, white papers, sermons, lectures and published work next to their Vitae on the website in their original form.

    It would also be nice to see Theology, Sociology, Psychology and all Church Re-engineering White Papers that have been submitted to the Church in their original form on the main Nazarene website.

  26. There is something inherently wrong with a movement that has to depend on censorship and misinformation to get its message across. It also speaks volumes about the integrity of those practicing the censorship and misinformation. If this is the foundation that your movement is built upon then it is a questionable one indeed. Very sad, and very disappointing. I am honestly shocked and heartbroken to see this kind of behavior coming from you.

  27. John,

    It is the same pattern- throw accusations out at us without backing them up. Accuse us of misinformation, instead of defending what you embrace, because it is not defensible.
    Those who defend the emergent/mystical ideology and heresy- have nothing to stand on but their own misguided human reasoning, “the religion of man.”

    You need to repent and come back to trusting (completely) the word of God- which is, and always will be, inerrant and infallible. You and I could not truly have fellowship because you consider those who respect the word of God- as bibliolaters. This was in your own words- and that is what is sad.

    I will continue to pray for you, and our denomination, whose schools are openly embracing mysticism and heretical teachings. Many more Nazarenes are starting to speak out and expose the falsehoods that the emergent church is bringing to this denomination.

    In the very words of those on NazNet, including you, you implied the dishonesty of a D.S. just because he does not believe in what you believe. Who is next- a G.S. who might speak up also? If you believe in all this foolishness, at least defend it biblically- the Bible being our only reliable and infallible source of authority from God. (If you agree)

    I stand on God and His word alone, and refuse to be blinded by the argumentations, logic and reasonings of prideful men.

    2 Corinthians 10:5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.

  28. Manny,

    I can hardly defend what I have said when you keep deleting my responses now can I? In addition if you would go back and read what I have written on NazNet in regard to the DS in question you will see that I never once questioned his honesty, I just found it in appropriate that he would require one to be a politically conservative republican (which was the implication of his letter) in order to be an elder. That I find is inappropriate (not to mention illegal).

    No the only one here that I have charged with lacking integrity is you because you would not allow my response to your misquoting me and misrepresenting me to stand and you while you claim to defend the letter of scripture you go against the spirit of the gospel again and again with your actions on this and other forums.

    And Manny whenever you place the trustworthiness of God in a place of dependence on your interpretation of scripture then that is by definition idolatry, and that is what you are doing. It is God Who created us, Who came to us in His Son Jesus Christ, Who gave life to the church and inspired her to write the scriptures, and then through the Holy Spirit reveals Himself to us through them, it is He Who demonstrates that we can trust what scripture says about Him and His salvation, not the other way around. I do not trust God because the Bible tells me so, I trust God because He has shown Himself trustworthy, faithful, and true, and because I trust Him I trust the testimony about Him, because I have seen Him at work in my life, in the lives of others, and throughout the 2000 year history of the church and the God Who reveals Himself to us is consistent with the testimony revealed to us in scripture, therefore I can trust what it says. But God is and always will be God over scripture. It is He that is alive, it is He that is active in His church, and it is He that speaks. Now if you choose to replace God with the Bible, then that is your choice, but as for me I will chose to follow the first commandment.

  29. John,

    Confession: yes, I do omit comments sometimes, and that’s my choice. This is my blog, and if I let every comment in, it would be crazy, and sometimes I decide that they are irrelevant. Feel free to start your own blog and let everyone know where you stand on the Bible’s authority and its perfection or imperfection. I am out professing what I believe, and what I reject, openly! I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ, and I will defend it if I have to lose all my friends and family.

    First of all, this is what you wrote, after someone asked “who are the other 30 DS?”

    You wrote: “Of course that little tidbit is conveniently omitted.”

    Please explain that. And you were not the only one to question his integrity, were you?

    You then give your opinion that Dr. Jenkins “would require one to be a politically conservative republican (which was the implication of his letter) in order to be an elder.”
    Yet you criticize me for giving what I believe is an interpretation of your comments. You can’t have it both ways. I gave my opinion base don what many of you on NazNet say to me and others. I could be wrong, but that’s my opinion!

    Secondly, I am amazed you continue to charge those of us who have a high view of scripture, with bibliolatry! Is this what you were taught in seminary? If so, the seminary you went to is a disgrace, and you have fallen for a lie.

    You said: “God is always over scripture?” Do you not understand that scripture is what God gave us, John? His pure and perfect word, so that we may come to know Him, through the testimony of His word! You don’t understand that?
    You tell me that the choice is either God, or the Bible? And then you say you will follow the first commandment. Well, that’s in the Bible, is it not? Then you ought to trust the entire Bible! This is man’s religion I am hearing from you. You pick and choose from the Bible what you want.

    I assume then that if you trust God but not the Bible, then you must be having some kind of direct, mystical experience with God. Is that so, or am I wrong? How do you measure your experiences and beliefs and know they are right or wrong, other than by comparing with scripture? Is it feelings? Is it a mystical, practicing the silence ritual, that lets you know when God has given you direction?
    Even Paul, who had some kind of mystical experience (initiated by God, not Paul) later said that the word of God was a more sure way. Yet here we have emergents, with their labyrinths, and lectio divina, and practicing the silence, and their reverence of heretical mystics like Nouwen, and Merton (which I have never heard any of you condemn as false teachers).

    Here’s my answer to that false choice: no! Absolutely not.

    Here are some of my core beliefs, reject them if you will. If you do, I would love to know by what standard, but I already have a good idea.
    My standard is scripture, God’s perfect word. Not my reasoning.

    1. God created us as told to us in Genesis. Adam and Eve were real people. I believe what Jesus said about them.
    2. The Bible is the inerrant word of God, because God would not allow falsehoods in His book. If so, He would be a liar.
    3. God does not make mistakes.
    4. God DOES know the future.
    5. My faith and trust is in God, who showed us the way of salvation through His perfect written word, which is the only sure basis for my faith and practice.
    6. I will not fellowship with the works of darkness- those who with their mouths profess to be Christians, but at the same time, promote evil, unbiblical practices.

    I will continue to pray for all those at NazNet who doubt the word of God and are practicing the religion of man.

    I leave you with one of many scriptures which attest to God’s word:

    “And we also thank God continually because, when you received the word of God, which you heard from us, you accepted it not as the word of men, but as it actually is, the word of God, which is at work in you who believe.” 1 Thessalonians 1:13

  30. Manny, I’m curious… When you read that verse (1 Thessalonians 2:13), and you see the phrase “the word of God,” do you think Paul is talking about the Bible there? Because it sounds to me like Paul is talking about his preaching, “the gospel” (a word he uses 4 times in the 12 verses in chapter 2 leading up to this one), the good news about Christ that he preached to them.

    Are you picturing Paul reading parts of the Scriptures to them, and that’s what he’s referring to here when he says, “the word of God, which you heard from us”? Or, since Paul was inspired and we consider his letters to be Scripture, perhaps what he preached to the Thessalonians was also inspired and therefore “the word of God”? If so…. well, we don’t have transcripts of his preaching from any of the cities he visited. If that’s what the verse means, then “the word of God” in that verse isn’t talking about what we have written in our Bibles today but is referring to the message Paul preached. It would be in agreement with the Bible and would likely quote parts of it, but the texts of his sermons aren’t contained in our Bibles.

    I know this is a big sidetrack from the point of your original post and the point of your comment. You quoted the verse, and the question popped into my head, so I thought I’d ask. I’m curious as to what you understand that verse to be saying.

  31. Wow John you want to talk about misinformation but yet you are a part of a website that is almost totally wrapped in misinformation and allows false teachers and pastors to say what ever they want to say on there little bully pulpits.
    Censorship?
    Naz Net does not allow me to comment as well as some others who have sought to get the truth out.
    Manny be encouraged God allows pastors like John out in the open so they can expose themselves and seperate sheep from goats.
    Meanwhile the Concerned Nazarene DVD continues to get out biblically solid information worldwide.
    Its still more in demand than ever and people will just have to choose if they want to be deceived by guys like John or follow biblically solid pastors.
    Its still their choice.
    Look at some of the recent Naz Net discussions on the Emergent Church.
    The Emergents continue to eat the very people who allow them to spread their heresy.
    Almost funny if it wasnt so sad.
    Dont waste to much time with John.
    Expose him and then just move on.
    Tim

  32. A typical lie from false teachers is that we worship the Bible instead of God or we have replaced God with the Bible.
    You can also go to the extreme and do stupid things like jump up and down on a Bible and yell we will not worship the Bible.
    I believe that is fruit from a Nazarene pastor as well.
    When the irony is we would not fully know who God is without His written Word.
    This is Gods Word not mans and it describes who God is.
    False teachers are in a hurry to deconstruct scripture so they can hurry and make a god in their own image instead of the other way around.
    Tim

  33. Rich,
    I understand that verse to be what exactly what it says. Do you believe that the Bible is the inerrant perfect word of God? Or do you believe it has mistakes in it? Do you believe God makes mistakes?

  34. John Brickley said, “I just found it in appropriate that he would require one to be a politically conservative republican (which was the implication of his letter) in order to be an elder. That I find is inappropriate (not to mention illegal).”

    Do you find it inappropriate when Democrats speak in churches? Did you have a problem with Obama’s Pastor’s “political speak”?

    John Brickley said, “And Manny whenever you place the trustworthiness of God in a place of dependence on your interpretation of scripture then that is by definition idolatry, and that is what you are doing.”

    John, that doesn’t make sense. Let me see if I can follow your logic…. “Manny (and many more) believe(s) in the authority of scripture so therefore he (they) are worshiping the text and therefore it’s idolatry?

    This is what Jesus’ has to say about scriptures and himself.

    John 1:1-5
    1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. 4 In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. 5 The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.

    I personally am glad that Manny has stood to defend the Gospel!!!

    Matthew 10:32-33 “Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven.”

    John Brickley said, “I can hardly defend what I have said when you keep deleting my responses now can I?”

    I get very very weary of liberal rabbit trails.

  35. Rich Schmidt, said: “I’d love for those to all get posted, too, Pam! I love the way information can be so freely and quickly accessible online…”

    I’m shocked that we agree!! :D Miracles do happen.

  36. I don’t remember, Pam — Are you a member of the Church of the Nazarene? If so, then we agree on a whole lot more than just whether or not people’s articles should be published online. :)

  37. 1. Yes, but have been praying very hard about changing.
    2. This is what the debate is all about, isn’t it Rich. If you are an “A” student from NTS, well I don’t think I’m a Nazarene in my heart any more. There has been a huge Biblical shift and it doesn’t seem to be changing in the near future. If the Emergents control the Seminary and most Naz schools, then……

    You can’t Biblically answer a simple question about Jesus’ suffering.

    You know what I don’t understand is, If Emergents
    1. don’t believe in hell,
    2. God’s wrath,
    3. don’t believe in sin with a literal Adam & Eve in the garden,
    4. and don’t believe that Jesus’ suffering and death paid the penalty for our sin

    …. then why do you need a Savior, church or a Pastor?

    …. their reasoning just ends up making themselves obsolete, I guess that is why you need to candles and chants, but really I can get that at Target and I don’t have to tithe to Target….

  38. Haha… I wouldn’t say “the Emergents” control anything at seminary or the universities…. unless you use that term MUCH more broadly than it’s used by anyone other than the Concerned Nazarenes.

    As for me, we don’t use chants or candles at the church I pastor (except for our Candlelight Christmas Eve service). I believe in sin, hell, our need for a savior, etc. I’m a Nazarene pastor, and those are all covered in our Articles of Faith. :)

    That doesn’t mean that the Penal Substitution theory of the atonement is the only or even central theory of the atonement. (In fact, I remember in college or seminary reading an article by an almost-retired Nazarene theologian — certainly not emergent! — arguing that the Governmental theory best fit with Scripture and our Wesleyan-Arminian understanding of it.) Christians understood that we have sinned and need Christ as our Savior long before the Reformers developed the Penal Substitution theory of the atonement. Many “emergents” are pointing out shortcomings in the Penal Substitution theory and advocating for other theories… but they are no alone in this.

    As for the question about Jesus’ suffering that you asked me on the other thread…. You didn’t ask me to “Biblically answer a simple question.” You asked me if I “have a problem with” a quote from the Taize website. So I went to the website, read the article, and shared my thoughts on it.

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