Nazarene Schools Drifting Away From Biblical Soundness

Nazarene Theological Seminary and Nazarene Bible College are two schools responsible for preparing future pastors in the Nazarene church.  What are they teaching or promoting which is different from many years ago?  More importantly, is there anything they are teaching that is reflecting a compromise with the emergent church, contemplative spirituality movements, and other man-centered ideologies?

Nazarene Bible College is teaching the practice of lectio divina and embracing Roman Catholic resources. This alone is a serious problem, if there were no other!  This seems par for the course now, as you will also note the same trend at NTS.  It is disturbing to me that our Nazarene universities and Bible schools show signs of ecumenism, specifically in the  Roman Catholic resources and books.  In the Spiritual Formation course at NBC, Practicing Wesleyan-Holiness Spiritual Formation, one of the books used is  Accepting the Embrace of God: The Ancient Art of Lectio Divina“.  The book is described as “an introduction to the discipline of praying the scriptures (spiritual reading) written by a Benedictine priest. He explains the four steps in the process and discusses how it can be used by a group.”  Since when have Benedictine monks become a standard source of guidance for a school that carries the banner of a Wesleyan holiness denomination?  Has the leadership at NBC shrugged their shoulders to the biblical admonitions to avoid those who preach another gospel? Is it not inevitable that when Christians start compromising with practically any denomination regardless of serious doctrinal differences, that eventually they will themselves be compromised, and be weakened in their faith and practice?  Romans 12 commands us (does not suggest) to “not be conformed to the world.”  Galatians 1:8 warns that if anyone brings to you another gospel, that they should be accursed!  Are not the major teachings of the Roman Catholic church another gospel?  Or has the Nazarene leadership given its blessings for the acceptance of  Roman Catholicism as being as sound doctrinally as traditional Protestantism?  What do our General Superintendents think about this trend?

Nazarene Bible College, whether through ignorance, or through deliberate planning, is embracing contemplative spirituality practices.  It would seem to me that the natural steps will be a further addition of contemplative prayer techniques as lectio divina becomes accepted by default as something  biblically sound.  Perhaps lectio divina has been perceived as the safest practice that can be accepted by Christians as something good and seemingly in line with biblical doctrine.  So once we can safely move from there, others are sure to follow, for why stop with that?  If the “ancient Christian practices” are sound, it’s a matter of time that they will be introduced also, and they are.  Prayer labyrinths will most likely soon be introduced at our seminaries.  They are at least in one university (Trevecca) and are being used without any sort of embarrassment or guilt, approved by its own President, Dr. Dan Boone.  I wonder how pastors reading this would react to a prayer labyrinth at our seminaries and Bible college?  Would some write a letter expressing concern?  Would others accept it as something within the bounds of Christian orthodoxy?

At Nazarene Theological Seminary (NTS), you can see the same trend in their course offerings and required books.  Spiritual Formation classes are par for the course.  In one class taught by Dr. Doug Hardy, called  Christian Spiritual Practices:  Sacraments and Asceticism, what you see is practically a Roman Catholic flavor.  One book is The Desert Fathers: Sayings of the Early Christian Monks.  Wait a minute, we are now interested in the sayings of the heretical Desert Fathers as required reading at a Nazarene seminary?  For what purpose, and to what end?  If its to point out the fact that these people were unbiblical in their ascetic approach to Christian living, that’s one thing.  But I doubt that is what this book is being used for.  Then the seemingly obligatory use of a Richard Foster book in practically every Nazarene university.  This one is called Freedom of Simplicity: Finding Harmony in a Complex World.  Don’t know what he has to offer with this, but I am again reminded how the some of the Bible doubters at NazNet complain that we concerned Nazarenes use resources that are not part of the Wesleyan tradition, yet they have no problem citing and use false teachers such as Foster.  At least my non-Nazarene resources actually believe in the truth and complete reliability of the entire Bible!

Another course, Seminar in Spiritual Formation, taught again by Doug Hardy, gives instruction on how to do pilgrimages.  One book is A Pilgrim’s Journey: The Autobiography of Ignatius of Loyola. Does Dr. Hardy have any idea of the history of Ignatius?  If he does, then I am even more concerned.  Here are just a few facts about Ignatius, excerpted from David Cloud’s book, Contemplative Mysticism: “Loyola’s asceticism was very extreme. He lived for a year in a cave, wearing rags, never bathing, and begging for his food. All of this was an effort to do penance for his sins. He scourged and starved himself and slept very little. He taught that “penance” for sin requires “chastising the body by inflicting sensible pain on it” through “wearing hairshirts, cords, or iron chains on the body, or by scourging or wounding oneself, and by other kinds of austerities” (The Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius, First Week, Vintage Spiritual Classics, p. 31).”  And this book is a good resource… how?  Loyola also dedicated himself to Mary, taught visualization prayer, promoted breath prayers, the use of spiritual directors, and his aforementioned book is growing in popularity amongst evangelicals. You can read the entire excerpt from Cloud’s book at his Way of Life website.

So again, this is yet another Roman Catholic resource.  And I have written previously about the dozens of Roman Catholic and mystical books recommended by Dr. Hardy for the Windsor Hills Camp library, and his involvement with the Spiritual Directors International, an interspiritual group that is ecumenical and promotes contemplative spirituality amongst all religions.

Finally, in Christian Spiritual Practices:  Connection and Service, taught by Dr. Hardy also, you find books such as: The Way of Friendship: Selected Spiritual Writings, by Basil Pennington.  Pennington is a heavy promoter of contemplative spirituality practices such as centering prayer (the focusing on a word and silently repeating it over and over again), which are unbiblical.  Why use him as a resource?  To show an example of what is not good?  I think not.  And then there is Flirting with Monasticism: Finding God on Ancient Paths, by Karen Sloan.  Sloan is a graduate of Fuller Theological Seminary, which is no longer a sound Christian institution.  In the description at Amazon books, part of it says The book, which reads like a blog, explores areas where evangelicals may feel at home with monasticism (community life) as well as with practices that feel foreign (praying to the saints and the Virgin Mary).”  Okay, let’s explore that area, shall we?  Praying to the virgin Mary!
I never thought I would see the day this would be happening across practically all of our Bible schools.  It’s amazing and disheartening to see, yet, does anyone care?

This is just a taste of it all.  There will be more posts on this, highlighting more of the things that are pointing ever consistently towards a move of our Christian universities and seminaries to becoming Roman Catholic; if not in name, certainly in practice.

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124 responses to “Nazarene Schools Drifting Away From Biblical Soundness

  1. And it seems that these schools of apostate thought are getting the blessing from the leadership of the Nazarene leadership.
    We need to remember Trevecca’s field trips to universalist/apostate monk Thomas Merton’s old abbey.

    So what are these young people truly getting prepped for?
    Thats the real question as well as Mannys fine expose.

  2. Please remove me from your email list. I am tired of how you continue to assault Trevecca Nazarene University and Dr. Dan Boone. Dr. Boone has extended multiple invitations to you to come and see for yourself what is being taught and practiced at Trevecca, and yet you have refused. I live and pastor in the Nashville area and I am on campus weekly. My wife and my eldest son are enrolled at Trevecca and another son to begin attending next fall, and I have no qualms in sending them. I have served on the Board of Trustees. I graduated from TNU with a second master’s degree (MA in religion–preaching) in 2009. I have been in classes with the current professors in the school of theology, and I know them to be orthodox theologians who are dedicated to equipping students to live out the message and lifestyle of biblical holiness. I know many of the students, and I know them to be biblically informed and passionate about living out their faith. I know these things firsthand and that is why I speak of them. You, however, continue to speak of those things of which you have not seen and really do not know, even though you have been given multiple opportunities to discover them for yourself. To refuse the gracious invitations of Dr. Boone while continuing to speak harshly about TNU undermines your credibility. I’m done. Please remove me from your list.

  3. Jimmy,
    First of all, you are not on my email list, as I have checked it and your email address is not there.

    Secondly, I can’t afford to travel to Trevecca right now- I have other possible places to go to as soon as I can set aside some extra money. Traveling to Trevecca, even if invited, would do no good. Dr. Boone has already made his point clear, or the school itself has through its website, that Trevecca is okay with such things as:

    1. Sending students to a Roman Catholic monastery on yearly retreats, to “practice the silence”, and also to fellowship with those who teach another gospel, pray with them, and participate in their rituals;
    2. Using a pagan practice called the prayer labyrinth (which for some reason they renamed “guided prayer walk” after we brought it to the attention of others).
    3. Spiritual formation resources such as books by false teachers and promoters of contemplative spirituality as: Richard Foster, Henri Nouwen, Dallas Willard, and Ruth Haley Barton, Mike Yaconelli, and contemplative organizations such as Upper Room.

    I and many other Nazarenes across the country are very concerned with these things going on. There are I am sure a lot of good things happening at Trevecca, but that is not a reason to ignore unbiblical practices, is it?

    Apparently you defend these things, yet you cannot state or will not state the biblical justification for these practices. That is your choice, and the choice you made for your kids, to send them to Trevecca. I will pray that their minds will not be poisoned by false teaching and emergent ideology (same thing I guess) by the time they graduate.

  4. Jimmy: So you kind of dodged my comments.
    Do you believe it is orthodox to send students to a Roman Catholic abbey where they promote universalism and Buddhism?
    Tim

  5. Manny,
    Good article, and should serve as a wake-up call for those in leadership to take inventory as to what is happening (or not happening) spiritually by allowing false teachers on our campuses.

    God reminds us through prophets like Jeremiah of His warning against false prophets and the spiritual damage they cause by their false teaching and very presence found in Jer. [23:].

    (V.1) Jeremiah warns “Woe to the shepherds who destroy and scatter the sheep of My pasture! says the Lord.” And in (V29) Jeremiah declares the power of God’s word to be; “Is not My word like a fire? says the Lord, And like a hammer that breaks the rock in pieces?”

    It would be well for those of the emergent camp to revisit Jeremiah’s words regarding God’s promise to those who would pervert His word.

    Lige

  6. It’s not just happening on our college campuses. Our church has Lectio Devina regularly and we have had “Prayer Labyrinths”. Our teens are taken to a monastery once a year to see and experience it.

    Jimmy – I can appreciate your sensitivity to the issue at hand. We live near a Naz college that we attended as well as all of our relatives and friends. While I agree that sometimes Manny’s passion and fervor can come across as cynical and inflammatory, I urge you to do your own research into the activities, rituals, individuals, books, etc. for yourself, and not take Manny’s OR Dan Boone’s words for it. FIND THE TRUTH for your own sake, and your children’s sake! Take every thought, word and action captive to Jesus Christ and His Word. The Scripture is the ultimate authority – there are many, many books about God’s Word, but go to the source as your point of reference.

    Jimmy, I also agree that there are many, many good solid-based Christians in our Nazarene higher education systems who are just as concerned as we are. I know several of them are in a mission field of their own and we need to lend them our prayers and support as they minister to our children. We need to equip our youth in apologetics so that they can be ready and prepared to give an answer to their faith and recognize false teaching – and question those teachers with boldness. This will help other students and encourage them to seek the Truth – the ABSOLUTE Truth!

    Manny – God is most assuredly Holy, but he is also love. We cannot have one without the other. Many come here looking for Truth and if we are not merciful then the Truth may be hidden to them. Please be careful on your processing approach. Pose the question “are they teaching this as something to avoid? are they teaching this as something good?” so that the Truth-seekers will quest to dig further and find out! Saying “it’s only a matter of time” [before the institutions indoctrinate further], however, can be presumptious for two reasons. 1.) We cannot foretell the future. 2.) We cannot discount the work of a miracle of the Holy Spirit to revive the hearts and minds with the blaze of Truth.

    Praying for REVIVAL!

  7. Betty,
    Thanks for the wise advice. I appreciate it. And I admit, that I can come across a bit harsh at times.
    Absolutely- No one should ever take my word for it automatically, and I encourage them not to do that
    - do the homework, pray, and do more homework- and check with God’s word all the time!

  8. So Jimmy,
    If anything I said offended you- it was not meant to offend you. I know that sometimes what I say and the way I say it, comes from the last two years of seeing much that I thought I would never see- and it breaks my heart to see, and I also get angry at those who are deliberately promoting unbiblical ideas, and a disrespect for God’s word. Yet I also in my anger at what they are doing, I pray for them as well.

  9. Hey Manny: I’m not at all trying to undercut what Betty said understand that.
    God is love.
    God is also truth.
    God will also show His wrath on sin.
    There is always the balance.
    We are living in almost a post-Christian society that accepts things the Church would not have accepted a mere 10 years ago.
    We live in an age where people who call themselves Christian (like many of the folks over at Naz Net) who call the gospel of John kooky and will ban people who take a strong biblical stand.
    And I’m talking about site moderators and hosts here not just random posters but the people in charge.
    Recently a church put up billboards saying Christians are jerks.
    Funny thing is Jesus was so hated for what He said they killed Him.
    Here is my reply to those folks at another blog site. And I believe it relates to what we do and the topic here.

    “Jesus Himself said “and you will be hated by all for my name’s sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.” Matt 10:22
    This of course does not give us a pass to be mean to people we need to love everyone just like God loves them.
    If we truly love people we will share the true gospel of Jesus Christ with a lost and dying world.
    But here is the catch if we refer to the world as lost and dying they are going to see us as jerks.
    Christians are not perfect but if you are not reflecting the love of Christ are you really even a Christian?
    Or are you a CINO (Christian in name only) sorry about the acronym I was not trying to be a jerk.
    The religious leaders in Jesus day thought Jesus was such a jerk because of His message and what He said He was killed for it.
    I think the billboards were a tremendous waste of money and self- deprecating.
    If this church thinks of itself as jerks maybe they should consider getting a new pastor.
    In my opinion a church many times is a reflection of their pastor.
    If you want to be thought of as a real jerk tell people that Jesus is the ONLY way.In this pluralistic society that doesn’t go over well.
    Matter of fact even though I say this in love there are people who will think I’m a jerk. I would be a jerk if I didn’t share the gospel with them. That would show I didn’t care if they went to hell or not.
    If you want to be called a real jerk let someone know that homosexuality is not compatible with Christianity and the Bible still states it is sin (no matter how you want to spin it).
    But gluttony is also a sin and take a hard look around these days.
    I rest my case.
    Blessings
    Tim” end quote
    Yes people like Dan Boone may think we are jerks because when light exposes darkness there ia almost always a negative reaction.
    Read Dan Boone’s commentary on Revelations which in my opinion is a distortion of the biblical text.
    Look at the heresy and unorthodoxy that is promoted on these campuses.
    Do you think they are going to let a guy like Al Mohler on, or in their chapel services or as a speaker so the students could hear the other side or a different point of view?
    Of course not because they have a agenda they want to forward.
    And its not about the truth because they do not know the truth and the truth is not in them.
    Blessings
    Tim

  10. Hello,
    This is my first time visiting your blog and I am rather startled by the critical spirit. Why do you spend your time tearing down the Church of the Nazarene and its institutions? Is there anything that you can do to instead build them up? Do you have any solutions to the “issue” of the “pagan practices” and Catholic teachings? Are you involved in the lives of any college aged young adults to learn and understand where they are coming from and why these activities and books appeal to this age group? Have you attempted to work in a more positive way with the leadership of NTS, NBC, ENC, and TNU that you so often criticize? Have you ever prayed before reading the works of professors like Dr. Hardy to see if God might speak to you through them? Or do you approach them in anger, picking them apart only to serve your purposes?

    I am greatly offended by your blog. I do not think that your words are building up the kingdom of God; I do not think they are helping the Church of the Nazarene. I think you are building up walls and divisions. What is it that you do believe? Instead of asking these institutions to explain themselves, what suggestions or alternatives can you offer them? How can you do something about these issues other than just complain? Is there Biblical support for a daily blog tearing people down?

  11. WOW! Lots of questions, Keri. Since this is your first time here, I will try to answer as clearly as I can, and perhaps this will also help others who have stopped by for the first time to understand.

    I’ll list them by number and then answer:

    1. “Why do you spend your time tearing down the Church of the Nazarene and its institutions?”
    I am a lifelong Nazarene. I disagree that I am tearing down the COTN. The tearing down of our denomination is coming from the heretical teachings of the emergent church movement, the social gospel movement, the environmental gospel movement, and is being caused by those who are introducing these teachings to our students and many of our churches.

    2. “Do you have any solutions to the “issue” of the “pagan practices” and Catholic teachings?”
    Yes I do. The solution is simple, and I have been recommending the only solution possible for a long time: go back to the principles taught in the scriptures, obey what the Lord Jesus Christ and the apostles gave to us once for all time, and we and all other Christians will do just fine. And if those who refuse to stop teaching heresy continue, I am praying that they either be removed, or that the schools themselves will be shut down, in order to protect our young people.

    3. “Are you involved in the lives of any college aged young adults to learn and understand where they are coming from and why these activities and books appeal to this age group?”
    Oh sure, to some extent, but I don’t need to spend lots of time with them to understand where they are coming from completely. But all they need to do is to trust fully in Jesus Christ and not on their own desires and wants, and they too will be fine. But if they continue to follow the post-modern mentality of me, me, and me, then they will be lost. I know exactly why these books appeal to them: it tickles their ears and gives them what they want to hear, not what they should hear, from the word of God.

    4. “Have you attempted to work in a more positive way with the leadership of NTS, NBC, ENC, and TNU that you so often criticize?”
    I have tried to some extent. I have met with the leadership at ENC personally and expressed our concerns. I have dialogued with the president of NNU and Trevecca to some extent. Others have done the same. But see, no one is listeneing, or if they are, they don’t want to deal with the problem, because unfortunately, they are part of the problem.

    5. “Have you ever prayed before reading the works of professors like Dr. Hardy to see if God might speak to you through them?”
    I pray all the time for wisdom when I read the works of these people. What Dr. hardy is doing, for instance, as an active member of an interspiritual organization that promotes ecumenical joining with religions around the world, is obviously a rejection of scriptural commands to separate from the world. God speaks to me through the scriptures, and that is my sole authority in all things. Of course, if what someone preaches to me conforms with the word of God, that will certainly be good to hear and accept.

    6. “Or do you approach them in anger, picking them apart only to serve your purposes?”
    I try not to approach in anger, and for the most part, being human of course, I do pretty well. I was most angry- and I believe righteously angry- after Dr. David felter wrote a piece on his blog, indicting many of us as “false accusers”, without a shred of proof. That kind of stuff makes me angry. Yet, people get angry with us, for simply making our case, and backing it up with facts, including scripture. My purpose is with this blog is simple, since you mentioned it: to expose false teachers in our churches and schools; to inform as many Bible believers as possible about these heresies; and to call for repentance for all those who are destroying our wonderful denomination.

    7. “What is it that you do believe?”
    You can read what I believe on my About Page. It is very clear.

    8. “Instead of asking these institutions to explain themselves, what suggestions or alternatives can you offer them?”
    There is only one suggestion I can give them: repent, and turn back to God’s ways, not man’s ways. Simple as that. Reject the false teachings of the mystics of the Roman Catholic church; reject Brian McLaren and all the other false teachers; come back to the Jesus Christ of the Bible, not the Jesus Christ of their own invention. That is very simple.

    9. “How can you do something about these issues other than just complain?”
    I take exception to the word complain. I would more say that I am speaking very loudly and trying to expose these false teachers to the world, to the many Nazarenes who are not aware of what is going on.

    10. “Is there Biblical support for a daily blog tearing people down?”
    If my blog was for the sole purpose of tearing people down, the answer is no. But that is not its purpose. We are commanded in scripture, as my blog’s main verse says, to “contend for the faith”. As Pastor Tony preached the other day, and explained one of the root definitions of the word contend, is that it means to agonize, like an athlete. To strive mightily and with great effort. That is what I am doing, because I am secure in my faith, yet I am not willing to be satisfied with that. I also want to defend the faith, so that others can be secure in the knowledge that they are believing in the real Jesus, and are being obedient to His word, not the words of false teachers who are seeking to tickle people’s ears with another gospel, another Jesus.

  12. Keri.Keri why all the hate speech?
    Can’t you see the positive results in exposing error and helping turn people back toward Gods Word?
    Can’t you see the freedom that comes from being free of satan’s agenda in these schools.
    Can’t you see the freedom from the bondage that Dr Hardy has put these unwitting folks in by promoting spiritual formation which is just really a reforming of new age ideas and agenda.
    We do pray before we read the corrupt works of Dr Hardy and God has opened our eyes to the error by reading His word which exposes the error Hardy and these schools of deceit cause.
    Keri why are you so hateful of us who do this out of love to help free the bondage satan has put unwitting, undiscerning kids in our schools?
    Keri I am offended by your words of hate.
    And our suggestions and alternatives to what if going on is to get back to reading God’s Word and reject the new age demonic practices going on in many so called Christian schools.
    Keri did I miss what solutions you would propose to get these schools to return to more sound biblical solutions?
    All I hear is your griping and complaining with your hate speech.
    Wow
    Tim

  13. I left the CotN after 41 years for the reasons the people Manny offends want to stay.

    The true gospel has never been, is not, and never will be about what people find attractive or want to hear. Yet church after church and denomination after denomination is beginning to conduct business in this fashion.

    I had enough after an Easter service, in which huge numbers of non regular attendees were not given the gospel message of salvation or a chance to respond to it.
    What better opportunity could there be?

    The pastor who allows his audience to determine his message, rather than the prompting of the Spirit is a false shepherd, whether that be from good intentions or not. Numbers of attendees, not number of disciples has to be the bottom line for such an approach.

    Frankly, I don’t give a rip who preaches if their words are not in agreement with what the Bible teaches. Increasingly, leaders of all stripes are giving their own teaching and believers need to stand against this, and by doing so, they are not tearing down the church, but defending it. Don’t confuse what is becoming a social club with the church.

    Sorry if this sounds harsh, but the real gospel is about eternity in heaven or hell. Do we make people happy now by sparing them the harsh truth and let them go to hell or risk offending them to give them the message of salvation?

    The practices in vogue today are geared to discovering God by your own methods (not Biblical methods) or discovering that God is already in you (Jesus promises to live in the believer, not all men regardless of their beliefs.) Many of the current practices do not acknowledge sin. God loves us, but not our sin. People need to hear. Like Manny says, the solution is to return to what the Bible says.

    I have found a faithful congregation, they still exist. Some of them are Nazarene, but locally, I had to go elsewhere. If the training in Nazarene universities and seminary don’t return to faithful teaching, I’m afraid many more who don’t want their ears tickled will ultimately go elsewhere. It gives me no pleasure to say so, but someone needs to.

  14. Thanks for a very quick response. I do not believe that asking questions is a hateful practice, and I do not hate you nor your ideas. I am surprised that a desire to ask questions and discuss these serious matters is perceived as hateful. I am not angry with you, I just do not understand how any of this is helping anyone. What does it mean to get back to the practices of the Bible? Which practices? It is easy to say that we want to be a “New Testament church”, but what exactly does that look like? What books and resources would you offer the student’s instead in Dr. Hardy’s class? We cannot edit church history. Has your faith not been challenged by reading these books on Ignatius and monasticism that you mentioned? I believe that though you disagree with them, these texts have strengthened your beliefs and faith. Can faith that is not challenged be truly trusted?

    I am not an expert in church history, but from my studies and understanding, weren’t all Christians “Catholic” in belief prior to the fifteenth and sixteenth century? Does this suggest that God did not truly reveal Godself during this time through the Church? I think that is why Dr. Hardy sees some merit in reading what the early monks wrote and studied.

    Pagan practices are at the root of many of our church traditions. We all know that Christmas trees at their origin are pagan, and the December 25th date for the birth of Christ was given and celebrated due to the celebration of the birth of Mithra in pagan religious practices. Even circumcision predates Abraham and was used in religions outside of Israel as a religious symbol (see Roland Devaux’s Ancient Israel, amongst other works). These pagan practices however took on an alternate, new meaning in the Christian church and I think God has used them for centuries to bring about God’s own glory despite the origin of the practice.

    I can appreciate your standpoint, and do appreciate that you are willing to stand up for what you believe. I simply questioned why all of the blog entries I have seen are critiques and do not offer books, resources, or even pastors that we should be listening to or studying as alternatives to the texts mentioned and critiqued here.

  15. Hello,
    I wanted to ask a question you on something that you said. You made two statements that I’m wondering about.

    First you said, “The tearing down of our denomination is coming from the heretical teachings of the emergent church movement, the social gospel movement, the environmental gospel movement, and is being caused by those who are introducing these teachings to our students and many of our churches.”

    Secondly, you said, “The solution is simple, and I have been recommending the only solution possible for a long time: go back to the principles taught in the scriptures, obey what the Lord Jesus Christ and the apostles gave to us once for all time, and we and all other Christians will do just fine. And if those who refuse to stop teaching heresy continue, I am praying that they either be removed, or that the schools themselves will be shut down, in order to protect our young people.”

    You have me wondering… What exactly do you mean by the ‘social gospel movement?’ Didn’t Jesus advocate for care for the poor. In Matthew 25, didn’t Jesus say what you’ve done to the least of these you’ve done to Him? The way I interpret the ‘social gospel movement’ is an attempt to return to Biblical principles.

    Aren’t a large amount of the Psalms about God hearing the cries of the oppressed and marginalized? Don’t we serve a God who was willing to die on a cross so that all may be redeemed to eternal life both after we die, but also to live and abundant life now (John 10:10).

    What about the exodus story? That sounds like a movement deeply rooted in the Justice of God and his care for the poor, oppressed, and enslaved.

    Didn’t the Church in Acts share all of their possessions so that no one was left hungry? Didn’t the early Christians believe that God was redeeming the world through them by their generosity, hospitality, teaching, preaching, and compassion? Weren’t they at odds with the Caesar’s and those in power? Weren’t they transforming the world through service, care for the poor, and generosity.

    What about your critiquing of the environmental gospel movement? I agree that in and of itself it isn’t the Gospel. But isn’t caring for creation a part of it. Didn’t God create the world? Weren’t we told to be stewards of creation? In John 3 doesn’t it say God so loved the WORLD? Is your interpretation that God only loves the people in the world? Because when I dive into my bible, I interpret it different. I think it is saying that God so loved the cosmos, the created order. And we are a part of it. Once again, God has invited us to be stewards in God’s work of redeeming God’s creation. That doesn’t make either of us wrong, just different interpretations on the same timeless Word of God.

    I do share your conviction that God wants to save us spiritually, but doesn’t God want to save us physically as well. What about people living in bondage? What would the Gospel say to a single mother in Africa dying of AIDs? What would the Gospel say to a young girl living in sex-trafficking? What does the Gospel say about homeless people? Wasn’t Jesus homeless? Doesn’t the Gospel beckon us to be socially-minded so that we care about those who are poor, marginalized, and oppressed?

    When asked what the most important commandment, Jesus responded with two: Love God and Love Neighbor.

    Is it possible that we can become so obsessed with the spiritual aspect of our faith that we miss out on the physical aspect as well? What does it mean to love our neighbor who is suffering under the weight of oppression?

    Looking forward to your thoughts as we healthily dialogue about how to be faithful to the Gospel that God has called us in 2010.

  16. Mat,
    I have no desire to do a continuing dialog on this blog about your questions- see my About page. We’ve gone over this many times.

    However, if you wish to ask me some questions via email, I can try to answer them between you and me and point you to many resources that will answer your questions.

    My email is reformednazarene@hotmail.com

    Thanks,

    manny

  17. Keri,
    Some of your comments such as regarding the Christmas tree and other issues have been answered before.

    Look, your questions have prompted me write a new blog entry soon to answer them more completely, because I felt a lot of folks come here who are new to the blog, and ask or are thinking the same questions.

    Just one or two points- reading books by heretical authors is good in your opinion? How is that justified biblically? There is NO merit in reading these books, unless it is to point out the error in their writings! The problem with heresy is that much of it is cloaked in “good stuff”. We cannot try to use these resources just because they have “some good” in them.

    That’s all I say on that, I believe Tim might be able to respond better as far as the Catholic question- although I don’t agree that we were all Catholic in the past.

    As far as recommending books… hey, why are we reading books by Catholic mystics, instead of books by holiness preachers and teachers? You think I should be the one to recommend that? Have you asked yourself that question, as to why we are becoming more and more Roman Catholic? Is that good?

  18. Mat I understand what you are saying but why send someone to hell without sharing the saving gospel of Jesus Christ?
    That’s what its all about.
    Jesus performed miracles and feed the five thousand not to make people feel better or fill a belly but to show the people who He is.
    Christians have been taking care of the poor since day one and I bristle at Emergent folk like Brian McLaren and his ilk that would suggest that the church is sitting on their hands.
    I do not know of any church who doesnt help the poor and needy myself.
    The latest social justice spin is just a lie from hell itself and is not based on any fact.
    Its more a political move to advance socialism.
    Jesus said in
    John18:36 Jesus answered, “My kingdom is not of this world. If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews; but now My kingdom is not from here.”
    Mat nothing has changed here our kingdom in Christ is not of this world.
    People need salvation from hell not their bad circumstances.
    Jesus also said in John 16:33″
    33 These things I have spoken to you, that in Me you may have peace. In the world you will[a] have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.”
    We are to be of good cheer even among our trials and tribulations.
    The problem is Mat you do not understand what scripture teaches.
    You prove that with your comments.
    The social gospel has nothing to do with the eternal and very permanent gospel of Jesus Christ.
    And yes we need to continue to take care of the poor and clothe the naked (which churches still do).
    But these good deeds must always be hand in hand with presenting the saving Gospel of Jesus Christ.
    Are you opposed to sharing the real good news?
    It sounds like you are in favor of a temporary fix where people will still spend eternity in hell instead of eternity with Christ.
    Tim

  19. Keri,

    Is there a line you will not cross or is everything on the table? Is the Bible equal with the history of the church?

    Here is an attachment of an award winning paper from Wynkoop Center for Women in Ministry.

    http://www.wynkoopcenter.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=89&Itemid=87

    Can you find one scripture to support this paper? Who is funding these papers and awards?

    The reasoning that we need Spiritual Formation to strengthen our faith because of lack of materials is very weak point in your response.

    I think debating and discussing theology with the “Nazarene Academy” is allowed only when you agree with them, which isn’t a debate in my book.

  20. Keri I can see you probably are a student of Dan Boones when Dan himself basically stated that the Old Testament saints basically just copied what they saw fro the pagans that were around them.
    quote
    “In an interesting way, we are doing what the Old Testament saints did in moving into Canaan – taking their Canaanite forms and terms and using them in a God-honoring way. The Hebrew creation account is a re-telling of the Babylonian tale. Their Hebrew feast days are re-interpretations of the Canaanite days. The Royal Psalms in the collection of Psalms were once Canaanite songs. It’s what E. Stanley Jones did with the Hindu Ashrams. He used their form to tell the story of Jesus. Maybe someone will come expecting Hinduism and find the people of God. In many of the ethnic ministries of the church, we find customs from other religions and use them as a means to begin conversation with people of that faith, in order to tell the Christian story.”
    end quote
    This cannot be true of course because of what scripture states and teaches in the Old or New Testament.
    The Old Testament states-
    “This is what the LORD says: ‘DO NOT learn the ways of the nations or be terrified by signs in the sky, though the nations are terrified by them. FOR THE CUSTOMS OF THE PEOPLES ARE WORTHLESS; . . .’ ” (Jeremiah 10:2-3, NKJV).”The LORD your God will cut off before you the nations you are about to invade and dispossess. But when you have driven them out and settled in their land, and after they have been destroyed before you, be careful not to be ensnared by inquiring about their gods, saying, ‘How do these nations serve their gods? We will do the same.’

    “You MUST NOT worship the LORD your God in their way, because in worshiping their gods, they do all kinds of detestable things the LORD HATES . . . See that you do all I command you; do NOT add to it or TAKE AWAY from it.” (Deuteronomy 12:29-32, NKJV, emphasis added throughout)
    As well as the New Testament”Do I mean then that a sacrifice offered to an idol is anything, or that an idol is anything? No, but the sacrifices of pagans are offered to DEMONS, not to God, and I do not want you to be participants with demons.

    “You CANNOT drink the cup of the Lord AND THE CUP OF DEMONS TOO; you cannot have a part in both the Lord’s table and the table of demons. Are we trying to arouse the Lord’s jealousy? Are we stronger than he?” (1Corinthians 10:19-22, NKJV)

    How did pagan come into the christian church? They primarily entered through the Catholic Church. From the late Roman Empire forward the church decided to either ignore such customs creeping into the church or just adopt them wholesale so that they (the church) could be more appealing to a wider audience. Hence, there’s no record of celebrating Christmas before the fourth century A.D., some three centuries after the time of Christ.The pagan festivals celebrated around the time of the winter Solstice, when the days stopped getting shorter and started getting longer, has a lot more to do with Christmas than the birth of Jesus, which historically most likely occurred early in the fall, not late in December. The Catholic Church began to paganize itself when it chose to compromise with paganism (especially after the fourth century A.D. when the Edict of Milan given by then Emperor Constantine openly endorsed Christianity as a religion).

    As far as the Catholic Church comes in history there were always groups that operated outside of the official church of Rome which did not even start to take place until 325 AD.
    The early Christian church as well as the post apostolic church was not in any way,shape or form the Roman Catholic Church.
    The mix of paganism with Christianity in order to form the Roman Catholic church did not start until Constantine around 325.
    Constantine did some very good things in ending the persecution of Christians but he bought his pagan baggage with him and officially started to add it to the Christian church which in turn morphed into the Roman Catholic faith as we see it today.
    For those who would say that the Roman Catholic Church was the only church simply do not know written history. The Reformation was a break from Rome as well as the break with the greek church in 1054 the time of the official split. Even though there were growing tensions between the east and west before the split.
    And number two-the church of Rome took about 1000 years to be in its current form.
    Mary worship and all did not take place right away but took time.
    There were groups like the Waldensians who believed in poverty and austerity, promoting true poverty, public preaching and the personal study of the scriptures. At that time, the Catholic Church was the main religious power in Europe. The sect originated in the late 12th century as the Poor Men of Lyons, a band organized by Peter Waldo, a wealthy merchant of Lyon, who gave away his property around 1177 and went about preaching apostolic poverty as the way to perfection.
    As far as popes go (while we are on the topic of the Roman Catholic Church)The study of the New Testament offers no proof that Jesus established the papacy nor even that he established Peter as the first bishop of Rome.
    The Catholic Church teaches that Jesus personally appointed Peter as leader of the Church and in its dogmatic constitution Lumen Gentium makes a clear distinction between apostles and bishops, presenting the latter as the successors of the former, with the Pope as successor of Peter in that he is head of the bishops as Peter was head of the apostles.
    Peter of course was not the first pope.
    Constantine also changed the headquarters of the Christian church from Jerusalem to Rome and Constantinople.
    This is when some real major corruption started in the Christian Church.
    The Reformation was a reaction to the corruption of the Roman Catholic Church not the Christian religion.

    Let me just end with the Desert fathers.
    No where in scripture does it say to go hole up in a cave or whatever as well as take on the practices of the eastern religions.
    In conflict to what the Desert Fathers did and practiced scripture teaches.
    Matt 5:14-16 teaches”
    4 “You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.”

    This is in direct conflict to the lifestyles of the monks.

    So should we emulate their behavior?

    Dont see anyone getting on board with beating yourself with sticks and whips or letting beetles bite you.

    Keri as for your hate speech I dont see that you are asking questions but making judgemental statements on many of the hearts and minds of Manny and others here.
    Which school did you learn to read minds in?
    Also your questions are not really questions but statements because you yourself do not offer any solutions but choose to judge us and our intentions.
    This blog is not about tearing people down (thats just your hateful mind obscuring rational thought).
    The blog is about defending the faith which has scriptural backing in
    Titus 1:9
    9 He must hold firmly to the trustworthy message as it has been taught, so that he can encourage others by sound doctrine and refute those who oppose it.
    Jude 1:3 Beloved, while I was very diligent to write to you concerning our common salvation, I found it necessary to write to you exhorting you to contend earnestly for the faith which was once for all delivered to the saints.,
    2 Corinthians 10:5
    5 We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God, and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ.
    What is practiced here is Christian polemics as well as apologetics.

    Tim

  21. Keri,
    It sounds like you have been listening to Rob Bell?

    Since you have asked for a resource….I will provide a VERY GOOD one concerning the Christian church taking on the ways of the pagan ways…..such as your comment about Mithra.

    It will take awhile for this link to download. I think it is close to 2 hrs. long. Put in on your Ipod….or subscribe via Itunes and go to the July 21st, 2009 podcast.

    http://podcast.fightingforthefaith.com/fftf/F4F072109.mp3

  22. Jimmy B. said, ” I have served on the Board of Trustees. I graduated from TNU with a second master’s degree (MA in religion–preaching) in 2009. I have been in classes with the current professors in the school of theology, and I know them to be orthodox theologians who are dedicated to equipping students to live out the message and lifestyle of biblical holiness.”

    Jimmy B, can you post a link to some of your papers? I’d like to read your orthodox theology.

  23. When we are talking about people being harsh we can also check the early church fathers.
    Remember the heresy of Marcionism…

    Marcionism is an Early Christian dualist belief system that originated in the teachings of Marcion of Sinope at Rome around the year 144see also Christianity in the 2nd century.
    Marcion believed Jesus Christ was the savior sent by God and Paul of Tarsus was his chief apostle, but he rejected the Hebrew Bible and Yahweh.
    Marcionists believed that the wrathful Hebrew God was a separate and lower entity than the all-forgiving God of the New Testament. (Sounds a lot like the Emergent Church and Brian McLaren to me here)

    This belief was in some ways similar to Gnostic Christian theology; notably, both are dualistic.
    Marcionism, similar to Gnosticism, depicted the Hebrew God of the Old Testament as a tyrant or demiurge (see also God as the Devil). Marcion was labeled as gnostic by Eusebius.
    Well when Marcion was passing one of the early church father’s (Polycarp) this conversation took place (and it was a short one).

    Marcion to Polycarp- Marcion met him by chance and said “Do you know us” he (Polycarp) replied, “I know the firstborn of the devil.”
    Wow thats pretty straight forward from someone who sat at the Apostle John’s feet (yes the apostle Johns Gospel which is called kooky over at naz net).
    Something to think about
    Tim

  24. Just to clarify the quote from naz net quote was from apostate Naz Net host Ben Burch of the theology thread (which is kooky in itself).
    Here is the exact quote from Ben
    “While I still think that John’s Gospel is “kooky” to say the least,”
    Again the product and offspring of our fine Christian school at Olivet.
    That again is from a theology host at Naz Net.
    A theology host that knows nothing about theology.
    Wow
    Tim

  25. Hey Tim;

    Just a quick comment on Ben’s reference to John’s text as kooky. I think that you have him out of context here. Ben and I have had conversations on this going back a long ways. He is not saying that John’s gospel is “kooky” in any way, he is talking about the actual text itself, sentance structure, use of symbolism etc. I agree with him, if you read all four gospels the synoptics read easy and natural, while John’s gospel takes more time and thought to digest.

    I’m not defending Ben’s theology, he says a lot of things that I can’t agree with. Just his use of the word “kooky”.

    BTW, I agree with you regarding Keri’s use of hate speech, that was how I saw it as well. The pot calling the kettle black. Somehow this post has enraged the Trevecca trolls. I thought that Dan had said that they would deafen the concerned with their silence?

  26. Hi Jim: Yea I dont sit on the fence on these things.
    And no you cant defend Ben’s lack of orthodox theology.
    It’s very disrespectful to refer to the Gospel of John as kooky and I understand that Ben does not understand scripture so I stand by my comments and I’m sure I did not take Ben out of context.
    There isnt any difference to refer to it as the text since it was what John wrote under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit not just some stuff John made up.
    If you think its kooky or goofy (or would refer to it in those words) as well you should probably repent.
    Also I again state it is absurd to have someone as a theology host who doesnt have a clue about theology.
    But hey its Naz Net so Im not surprised.
    And hey to see how Jesse Middendorf,JK Warrick and Dave Felter are giving kudos to false teacher Tom Oord I guess nothing surprises me these days.
    Very sad this great falling away.
    Tim

  27. Just to add I feel really sorry for the Nazarene denomination.
    The leadership at large has embraced heresy and apostasy and I dont believe there is any turning back.
    They continue to promote and allow false teachers such as Tony Campolo, Len Sweet and Brian McLaren into the campuses and the mind’s of undiscerning youth and students through not only live events but materials that will rot the minds of the youth with their false teachings and materials.
    This will bear false fruit in the years to come.
    Best advice in my opinion is to flee this denomination in droves.
    Biblical, orthodox teaching has pretty much fled this denomination and there will be a price to pay for the fruit that this will produce.
    But hey they are and will be accountable to the Lord Jesus for their lack of wisdom.
    Not me.
    I think at this point concerned christians just have to shrug their shoulders and move on.
    Very sad state of events but the leadership doesnt buy into biblical orthodoxy any more so no good will come of all this.
    Tim

  28. Just one last comment.
    To me its become all about religious politics, a number’s game, go with what is popular inspite of what is biblical.
    I think all the Nazarene GS’s are nothing more than politicians at this point with a very big lack of discernment most of all Middendorf who has bought into the Emergent Church hook,line and sinker.
    Most of all because of what his son promotes.
    Very sad I think.
    This is not just happening in the Nazarene denomination but in a large portion of the Body of Christ.
    The scriptures speak about this 2 Thess 2:3

    3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;”

    And if you have read Dans Boones commentary on Revelations (which is my opinion the most unbiblical commentary I have ever read) you would think this is all stuff and nonsense.
    The caution here is LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU.
    That goes for GS’s in any denomination as well as the Emergent Church and the apostasy that seems to have a free rein in Christianity.
    Time to separate the sheep from the goats I think.
    Tim

  29. Matt said, “Didn’t the Church in Acts share all of their possessions so that no one was left hungry? Didn’t the early Christians believe that God was redeeming the world through them by their generosity, hospitality, teaching, preaching, and compassion? ”

    1. Believers shared all their possessions and put the money at the apostles feet not at the feet of Rome. The believers did not argue and rage against the Romans because of their lack of possessions. The church was not commanded to sell all their possessions by the apostles or the Romans. What you describe is a cult, Communism or socialism. God’s word tells us to submit to the leaders in government.

    Acts 4:32All the believers were one in heart and mind. No one claimed that any of his possessions was his own, but they shared everything they had. 33With great power the apostles continued to testify to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and much grace was upon them all. 34There were no needy persons among them. For from time to time those who owned lands or houses sold them, brought the money from the sales 35and put it at the apostles’ feet, and it was distributed to anyone as he had need.

    2. Rules on who gets put on the list.

    1 Timothy 5: 9No widow may be put on the list of widows unless she is over sixty, has been faithful to her husband,[a] 10and is well known for her good deeds, such as bringing up children, showing hospitality, washing the feet of the saints, helping those in trouble and devoting herself to all kinds of good deeds.

    3. Creation groans as it waits for it’s future glory. If you don’t believe any of Revelation you are going to have a myopic view of creation because you are rejecting the 2nd coming of Jesus. When you reject creationism and the creator your Creation care theology is weak at best and heresy at worst.

    Romans 8:18 I consider that our present sufferings are not worth comparing with the glory that will be revealed in us. 19The creation waits in eager expectation for the sons of God to be revealed. 20For the creation was subjected to frustration, not by its own choice, but by the will of the one who subjected it, in hope 21that[i] the creation itself will be liberated from its bondage to decay and brought into the glorious freedom of the children of God.
    22We know that the whole creation has been groaning as in the pains of childbirth right up to the present time.

  30. Tim,

    So it was Dan Boone that said this?:

    “In an interesting way, we are doing what the Old Testament saints did in moving into Canaan – taking their Canaanite forms and terms and using them in a God-honoring way. The Hebrew creation account is a re-telling of the Babylonian tale. Their Hebrew feast days are re-interpretations of the Canaanite days. The Royal Psalms in the collection of Psalms were once Canaanite songs. It’s what E. Stanley Jones did with the Hindu Ashrams. He used their form to tell the story of Jesus. Maybe someone will come expecting Hinduism and find the people of God. In many of the ethnic ministries of the church, we find customs from other religions and use them as a means to begin conversation with people of that faith, in order to tell the Christian story.”

    Unreal. And I am sure many professors and others believe and teach the same thing. It truely amazes me that so many DS’s, pastors, and students (well, I understand them) back Dan to the hilt; he can do no wrong. Oh yeah, I heard the audio where he spoke on his book “Chicken Little” (that’s each of us, you know, the fundamentalists), and I was stunned. I plan to buy the book just to see how deep this well is but without any water.

    Blessings,
    Mike

  31. Mike dont waste a lot of money on Dan Boone’s poor commentary of the book of Revelations.

    I got it for .20 plus shipping on Amazon.com.
    Thats still to much but Im doing a review of the book so I needed it to read.

    Make sure you buy lots of Tums to get through the book.
    And yes that is a Dan Boone quote above.
    Tim

  32. Mike, Fletcher Tink has some of the same quotes and according to this document E. Stanley Jones is one of his preacher heroes: http://tinyurl.com/28g8z7a

    There are some pretty odd and radical statements in that ‘Clergy Development’ document.

  33. Betty,

    Thanks, I’ll check it out. I have read this one:

    http://nazarenepastor.org/clergyeducation/portals/0/WH%20Spiritual%20Form/WHSFStuG.pdf

    It is dated 2002. So the COTN has been going down the tube at least for that long, as much of what I read in it is disgusting, especially the “teaching sermon” on page 53. If a person cannot accept what Christ did on the cross for exactly what it is, then why should they be a “Christian” at all? And what kind of clergy can this junk produce if it is ingested?

    Blessings,
    Mike

  34. Manny
    In my opinion what we are witnessing today is Satan setting the stage both politically and spiritually using counterfeit means and methods to advance his soon becoming the antichrist. What we are seeing both on the political (social) and spiritual front I believe supports this. When he is revealed Satan will rule both the political and spiritual in the world. Those who are led astray by false teachers such as those who embrace the emergent ideology and who cannot support their position with Scripture are in great danger. The social attitude embraced by the emergent’s as a means of saving one or all souls is pure rubbish.

    Matt had some interesting comments on what Jesus taught about our social responsibilities. Yes! Jesus did mention that we are to care for our brothers and sisters in Christ, but not in the context that many pastors are now focusing their main attention even to the exclusion of preaching Christ as our only hope of redemption.

    God never intended for man to be lazy and shirk his duties and allow someone else to provide for himself and his family. Some churches have bought into this over exaggerated interpreted teaching. If that were true God would not have commanded Adam to “tend and keep it (meaning the garden)” before He told him that “you may eat freely (with the exsception of the tree of knowledge) Gen. [2: 15-16]. Paul would not have said; “If anyone will not work, neither shall he eat.” 2 Thess. [3: 10]

    As Tim pointed out there are those legitimate opportunities for the church to serve social needs and I agree many churches are doing just that using those opportunities to tell the salvation message.

    It is when we push social worth above spiritual worth that we stand on dangerous ground not to mention becoming theologically incorrect. Jesus teaches His diaciples the fear of God following His warning them of hypocrisy. Here He shows the value of the soul over the physical and puts the social into the proper perspective concerning life upon earth and eternity and which has the greater value. He encourages them not to be afraid of those who can only kill the body but rather fear Him who after He has killed the body has the power to cast into hell. Luke [12: 1-5

    For those who believe that Jonh 3:16 means saving the universe over man’s soul needs to consider which has more value to God Man or earth. Man is the only one that God spoke of as having an eternal soul, not even the earth can claim that.
    Lige

  35. Thanks Lige. My followup post tomorrow on Campolo’s visit, which I attended, will clearly state how at least one person sees this for what it is. It will not hold back anything any longer, as I continue to be grieved for the youth at the Nazarene schools.

  36. “Happy Ninety-Five Theses” Day to all my Bible and Historical Christianity loving friends!!

    The 95 Theses on the Power and Efficacy of Indulgences (Latin: Disputatio pro declaratione virtutis indulgentiarum), commonly known as The Ninety-Five Theses, was written by Martin Luther in 1517 and is widely regarded as the primary catalyst for the Protestant Reformation. The disputation protests against clerical abuses, especially in regard to indulgences.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ninety-Five_Theses

    Romans 1:17 For in the gospel a righteousness from God is revealed, a righteousness that is by faith from first to last, just as it is written: “The righteous will live by faith.”

  37. Part of the problem with these reprobates is many do not believe in a literal hell.
    So if there is no literal hell (which of course the scripture teaches there is) what would be the point of the gospel lets just let people live off each other.
    And dont get me wrong we should help the poor but looking around America it doesnt look to me that too many people are missing meals.
    Plus when giving money to missions (that present the gospel) it is your duty to follow up to make sure they are being good stewards with your money.
    There have been many worthy events that go to Africa where the money never gets to the people in need.
    Does that mean do not give to folks in Africa?
    No just be smart and give to only tried and true folks who have a good track record and are transparent.
    Tim

  38. Just a few comments on the Desert Fathers and St. Ignatius.

    1. The Desert Fathers were read and accepted as good material by John Wesley, the self-proclaimed “homo unius libri,” though he had a box on top of his saddle to read all kinds of books and write while he rode on his horse.

    2. St. Ignatius’s autobiography is rather dry, but it does document his struggles with entire sanctification. He was plagued by scruples and frequently was advised to avoid being scrupulous. They were a thorn in his flesh. His primary mission, as you will find out, was to help souls. We all know that helping souls often gives us a humble reminder that we ourselves aren’t perfect. Ignatius wasn’t perfect, but he tried his best to do what he thought was the way of holiness. He was very devoted to reading the Scripture and was very devoted to being obedient to what God wanted.

  39. Nice to hear from you again Andy.
    Just a quick response to your points:
    1. If the John Wesley thing is accurate- and I would love to see the references to that- I would then have to dsiagree with John Wesley on it. It does not matter to me who looked favorably on Ignatius. I know Ignatius’s history, and the things he practiced and promoted- such as visualization prayer- are totally unscriptural.
    If he was really devoted to being obedient to what God wanted he would not have done things like: his extreme asceticism; lead the Jesuit order in the persecution of Christians during the Inquisition, while taking a vow of complete submission to the pope and the Catholic Church. he taught a works based gospel, which is heresy. He promoted breath prayers- unbiblical also. We are not taught to pray repetitiously in the Bible- the breath prayer is a form of that.

  40. Breathing prayers is an ancient practice of iconographers. It is a method used to moisten clay while saying the prayer (directly from Scripture), “Jesus Christ, son of David, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Clay is the only way that gold can attach to an icon. If someone would friend me on facebook, they could see my pictures of learning iconography. Repeating Scripture is something I was taught to do in the Church of the Nazarene. For instance, my staunch Nazarene grandmother used to pray throughout the day “I can do all things through Christ who strenghteneth me” because she was physically weak. I assure you, her repeated prayer of Scripture was heard by God Almighty whether the practice was Scripturally based or not.

    About Ignatius of Loyola, he’s not considered a Church father and his spirituality isn’t required to be practiced in order to be a Catholic. Ignatius was actually arrested by the Spanish Inquisition twice, from what I recall. He was also questioned in Rome. This is a great prayer he wrote:

    Teach us, good Lord, to serve thee as thou deservest;
    to give, and not to count the cost,
    to fight, and not to heed the wounds,
    to toil, and not to seek for rest,
    to labor, and not to ask for any reward,
    save that of knowing that we do thy will.

    His idea of obedience was militant in nature because he himself was a military man. It’s not for everyone, but, for some, like Mary, Ignatius wished to be totally abandoned to Christ and His Church, which, according to the Scriptures, are one. By the way, what Christian was persecuted by St. Ignatius of Loyola?

    Wesley was accused of being a Jesuit agent, it’s rather humorous, but true. Here is a quote about Wesley’s thoughts on the Spiritual Exercises.

    http://books.google.com/books?id=mW9VQiD0sQgC&printsec=frontcover&dq=%22John+Wesley%22+By+Frank+Banfield&hl=en&ei=0L_UTJCkJoT58AaUrcyPCQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CC4Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22John%20Wesley%22%20By%20Frank%20Banfield&f=false

    Check Page 24.

    On Wesley and the Early Fathers, read or skim this fine article by Dr. Herbert McGonigle. He was a professor of mine when I was enrolled at Nazarene Theological College.
    You will find in the article Wesley’s critiques of Catholicism and his review of Catholic Mystics. I am afraid you will probably be upset by this article, nevertheless, McGonigle knows Wesley inside and out, down the finest of details.

    http://www.wesley-fellowship.org.uk/Exemplar.html

  41. I don’t see how I could get upset with the article, although I just started reading it. I do not hold Wesley so high that I would be disappointed if he said something contrary to what the Bible teaches- although I have not finished the article.

    Ignatius founded the Jesuit order, aka Society of Jesus. He vowed to “serve only God and the Roman pontiff, His vicar on earth.” Popes have no such biblical authority to call themselves that. The Jesuits were a major part of the Counter Reformation- not a fun time if you disagreed with Rome. They were called the pope’s “shock troops.” He taught obedience alright- absolute obedience to Rome. “Finally, we must praise all the commandments of the Church, and be on the alert to find reasons to defend them, and by no means in order to criticize them. … we must hold fast to the following principle: WHAT SEEMS TO ME WHITE, I WILL BELIEVE BLACK IF THE HIERARCHICAL CHURCH SO DEFINES” (The Spiritual Exercises of St. Ignatius, Vintage Books edition).

    Well, if I followed that same suggestion in the Nazarene church, I would not be conversing with you today. The Nazarene church is drifting from biblically sound doctrine, as did the Roman Catholic Church. Boy, am I glad I am loyal to God first, rather than trusting blindly whatever our leaders say.

  42. oops, I left out something in the post about Dr. McGonigle’s article. Read Wesley’s quote in the citations at the bottom. Number 30.

  43. Let me correct something here, the early church fathers were not Roman Catholic (or Catholic) because the church historically was not even formed at the time they were alive.
    Peter was not the first pope, Christ was and is the rock Christianity is on not a human etc..
    I do believe Andy’s story (going from Nazarene to Catholic) is something worth looking at and is part of the reason this group is around.

    As far as the Desert Fathers are concerned lets revisit that..

    No where in scripture does it say to go hole up in a cave or whatever as well as take on the practices of the eastern religions.
    In conflict to what the Desert Fathers did and practiced scripture teaches.
    Matt 5:14-16 teaches”
    4 “You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven.”
    This is in direct conflict to the lifestyles of the monks.
    So should we emulate their behavior?
    Dont see anyone getting on board with beating yourself with sticks and whips or letting beetles bite you.
    Yes Jesus did go out to be alone to pray as well as going out for 40 days to prepare Himself for ministry.
    But He did not isolate Himself as the monastic lifestyle emulated
    Tim

  44. Regarding your statement’s on the Desert Fathers, first of all, they are not to be confused with what history calls the Early Fathers, which would include names such as St. Ignatius of Antioch, St. John Chrysostom, St. Polycarp, St. Justin Martyr, Origen, Tertullian (both not canonized in the Church for their falling into error nevertheless considered Church fathers). It was St. Ignatius, the 2nd or 3rd bishop of Antioch, where the Scripture says they were first called Christians who first used the term Catholic as a hybrid of two greek words, being Kata (every) and holos (whole). In other words, it was a label that described those who followed/lived/practiced the teachings of Jesus Christ. None of these men lived monastic lives, unless you considered that many were celibate like Jesus and Paul, lived modestly or poor as beggars, and were obedient to their superiors like the Apostles were to Peter and the local Bishop James in Acts 15 in the first council of Jerusalem.

    It wasn’t until St. Anthony of the Desert went into the desert that we talk about eh Desert Fathers. Your view of their choice of lifestyle is certainly one perspective of what they did. However, it is commonly held that these men went into the desert for a different reason. See, up until Anthony’s time, Christianity was illegal under the Roman government. It was thought that the quickest and surest way to heaven would be to live the Christian life and die a martyr’s death for the faith. Shedding of one’s blood for the cross was a literal action of taking up one’s cross like Jesus and the Apostles (save St. John). When St. Anthony came around, Christianity had begun to be accepted and the Christians did not have to deal with persecution as their predecessors had had to endure. Nor were there anywhere near the martyrdoms as has been in the past.

    Knowing this was a noble way to die, and without the means to do it. Men like Anthony fled to the desert to become “white martyrs” for the Faith. In other words, they would take on a worldly death by selling their possessions and giving up their families for a life of following Christ as he had commanded in the Scriptures. This death would be “white martyrdom” because it did not involve the shedding of blood. That’s their perspective. According to this ideal of practice, I think one would be truly challenged to be able to truly conclude that what these men did was wrong.
    I’m no monk, it’s not for me. Some orders of religious life are semi-cloistred, they work in the world and live in community as the early Christians. These are the most popular, but they got their foundation in the Scripture and in the practices of St. Benedict, who took inspiration from the Desert Fathers.

    Regarding the Church being organized, what do you make of typing the word Church into the KJV selection over at biblegateway.com and getting 5 pages of verses about the Church here or there? Christ said he would “build” a Church. Something built is something formed; material, or as you probably believe, immaterial.

    St. Stephen’s martyrdom in Acts 7 is a wonderful sermon about the Church in the wilderness. I supposed that could have been some inspiration for Christians wanting to journey to the wilderness to find God. Of course, this is just my humble speculation.

    It also should be noted that in spite of the fact that he was cloistered, St. Bernard of Clairveaux certainly let his light shine before men. He did it all from his monastery. Martin Luther did the same thing as he was in hiding. He wrote all kinds of stuff that made an impact of Christianity.

    You don’t hear about mortification because it doesn’t happen, you don’t hear about it because telling others you practice it is not its nature. It would be like bragging that you prayed a lot to another or gave a lot of money to the Church. However, if you ask a serious Catholic, they will share with you all kinds of ways to mortify the flesh. Whips and beetles (one I haven’t heard) and sticks are the most extreme of these practices. I will say, that during temptation, if I will pinch myself, it usually “wakes me up” that what I am being tempted to do is bad for me. That is a common way of mortifying oneself. When we were young, our parents did this for us. When we were acting up or about to act up, we would get the ole hand to the back of the head or a pinch or a switch. It was a dose of sobering truth to the drunken minds we had as children.

  45. Yes I understand the difference between the Desert Fathers and the early Church Fathers. The Desert Fathers were largely in fact hermits. I certainly did not mean to lump the early church fathers in with the Desert Fathers. Two groups. The Desert Father again did not follow scripture in their lifestyle as I pointed out with scripture above. They did take “die to self” to the extreme basing their lives on more works based salvation rather than letting their light shine among others.
    Again though the Desert Fathers did not imitate Christianity in their lifestyle but rather imitated Buddhist/Hindu monks (eastern religion-not Christianity) and the various mystery schools they were exposed to in Alexandria.
    The eastern monastic tradition at Mt. Athos and the western Rule of St. Benedict both were strongly influenced by the traditions that began in the desert.
    My point about the early church fathers was that they were not Roman Catholic as the Catholic Church claims because the Roman Catholic religion had not even taken form at that point in history.
    As far as your statement “You don’t hear about mortification because it doesn’t happen,”
    Sure it does its still a practice as you point out and for sure Opus Dei still promotes the practice.
    Tim

  46. We always need to go back to scripture, regardless of how noble was the intentions of the Desert Fathers, or the early fathers, or anyone.

    Christ never commanded us to live a solitary life in seclusion from everyone, as many of these men did for years. One of the Desert Fathers, Anthony (called St. Anthony the great by Rome) was in complete solitude for 20 years! Much of his story includes having supposedly battled the devil for years, including supposedly being beaten unconscious by satan. He lived for months on a small quantity of bread.

    You said “According to this ideal of practice, I think one would be truly challenged to be able to truly conclude that what these men did was wrong.” But it was wrong, when you view it in light of scripture. Asceticism and extreme solitude is a works based gospel, which adds to the grace of Christ (Don’t know if I mentioned Gal. 1:6-9). It puts these traditions on the same level of authority as scripture. There is nothing in scripture that teaches us to do anything like this. Fasting is taught, but not to the extreme that these people went through. But certainly physical punishment of the self was never taught in any way.

    St. Bernard of Clairvaux was a French monk of the Cistercian order. He supposedly had many visions- including as a child seeing God becoming man and being born to Mary. In one of his books, he calls Mary the Queen of Heaven, the Star, the ladder on which sinners may climb to God, the royal road to God. He venerated Mary to the point of idolatry! Quote: “God has willed that we should have nothing which would not pass through the hands of Mary.” (http://tldm.org/news5/mediatrix1.htm)
    He persecuted Bible believers in southern France fiercely. His asceticism was so radical (intense fasting, sleep deprivation) that he was often very sick and emaciated.

    And St. Benedict, who wrote The Rule of St. Benedict, taught for instance that celibacy is preferred to marriage. That’s unscriptural. And he also believed in a works salvation. Here are some quotes:

    “If we wish to dwell in the tent of this kingdom, we will never arrive unless we run there by doing good deeds” (Rule of St. Benedict).
    This rule directed every aspect of life for the monks- everything. How they clothed themselves, travel, their daily schedules, relationships, worship, sleeping. They were told never to associate with anyone except first getting permission from the abbot.
    This is all legalism, which is clearly refuted in much of the scriptures, in Romans, Galatians, Colossians.

  47. If you are referring to St. Bernard “persecuting” the Albigensians, then I say rightly so. They promoted abortion, having sex with animals, starving themselves and taught that the body was wicked. They were a new rendition of the Manichees. The Cathars (as the Albigensians called themselves) attempted to bring gnosticism into the Church.

    Mary is referred to as Queen of heaven because she is seen crowned in heaven in Revelation Chp. 12. Queens and Kings wear crowns.

  48. I don’t think anyone should have been persecuted, regardless of what they believed. However, I was referring more to the Petrobuscians and Henricians.

    From the website reformedreader, regarding the Petrobruscians:
    http://www.reformedreader.org/history/pius/chapter02.htm

    THE PETROBRUSIANS, among the earliest of these sects, were the followers of Peter of Bruys, in Southern France, who preached with great power and blessing. We know not by what means he was led to the thoughts and conclusions which brought him to the position of the bold reformer. Cramp defines his position as follows: “Baptism and the church were contemplated by Peter in the pure light of Scripture. The church should be composed, he constantly affirmed, of true believers, good and just persons; no others had any claim to membership. Baptism was a nullity unless connected with personal faith, but all who believed were under solemn obligation to be baptized, according to the Saviour’s command.” The Petrobrusians brought down upon their heads the wrath of Peter the Venerable, who wrote a book against their “heresy,” because they absolutely rejected tradition and appealed to the Scriptures as the sole authority in religion, and because they denied sacramental grace. With Vedder we can see that these “errors” of the Petrobrusians were what Baptists have always held to be precious and fundamental truths. After twenty years of splendid labor amid fiery trials Peter of Bruys was burned as a heretic about the year 1126.

    These people were guilty of refusing to submit to the pope, hence Bernard and his people persecuted them terribly.

    The Henricians were also persecuted, and were founded by a student of Peter Bruys. They also were against such things as infant baptism and other Roman Catholic teachings.

    As for Mary, there are plenty of facts about her and how she is venerated to the point of idolatry by the Roman Catholic Church.

  49. Sorry Andy you are wrong in that comment about Mary being crowned in heaven.
    This is not an actual woman, but a symbolic representation of Israel, pictured in the Old testament as the wife of God (Isa 54:5-6, Jer 3:6-8,31:32, Ezek 16:32,Hos 2:16).
    Being clothed with the sun speaks of the glory,dignity and exalted status of Israel, the people of promise who will be saved (in the great tribulation) and given a kingdom.The 12 star represent the 12 tribes of Israel.

    You stated “If you are referring to St. Bernard “persecuting” the Albigensians, then I say rightly so”.
    I’m not finding where they promoted abortion or having sex with animals (maybe you got that in a Catholic history book?). Some of the groups were gnostic, others not so you are twisting this a bit.
    They were mainly persecuted because they did not want to practice the Roman Catholic religion.
    When is it right to persecute? (that was rather medieval Catholic of you)-WOW
    And yes it was wrong for the Puritans to burn witches as well.

    Tim

  50. It also needs to be stated the Roman Catholic Church teaches that Mary is queen of heaven not because of what scripture teaches. Andy did not rightly divide Gods word.
    Mary was declared queen of heaven because of the Catholic teaching on this subject is expressed in the papal encyclical Ad Caeli Reginam issued by Pope Pius XII. It states “The Blessed Virgin Mary is to be called Queen not only on account of her divine motherhood but also because by the will of God she had a great part of the work in our salvation…In this work of redemption the blessed Virgin Mary was closely associated with her Christ…Just as Christ, because he redeemed us, is by a special title out King and Lord, so too is Blessed Mary,our Queen and our Mistress, because of the unique way in which she co-operated in our redemption. She provided her very substance for his body,she offered him willingly for us, and she took a unique part in our salvation by desiring it, praying for it, and so obtaining it..
    Ad Coeli Reginam

    Notice the pope never quotes scripture to prove his statement.
    Andy how long have you been a Catholic?
    And correct me if I am wrong.
    You were once Christian (Nazarene) and then converted to the Catholic faith?
    Is that correct?
    Please correct me if I mis-quoted the pope.
    Thanks
    Tim

  51. I have been a Catholic for 4.5 years. I was once a Nazarene.

    The pope made this statement about Mary being queen of heaven. For the pope to give someone a title doesn’t require it to be in Scripture. For instance, the Trinity is a title given to God. Where is that in Scripture? That Mary is the Queen of heaven is an ancient title and so Pope Pius mentioning it wasn’t the first time this was spoken of.

    http://thebananarepublican1.wordpress.com/2009/11/02/mary-queen-of-heaven-patristics/

    John spoke of a woman with child and the great Dragon wishing to devour it. It can’t be more explicit than that.

    If this is Israel in the passage or in other passages when Israel is interpetted, then why do we even need a Church? Why not be Jewish since the Jews have such a special connection that we Gentiles fall so short of? Stephen applied the concept of Church on top of the Israelites.

    Tim, regarding persecution. What say you of the militant Moslems that stormed a Catholic Church last week in Baghdad and took the lives of 52 including two priests? How do we resolve this conflict that continues?

  52. Hey. I have something quick to say.

    I don’t understand why this all has turned into such a big deal, honestly.
    1. How do you know what the young people believe. Do you hang out? Do you talk? Do you have honest to God conversations? Not conversations (as this blog seems to represent) full of assumption.
    2. I don’t think its very fair to just go based off of Trevecca’s website. I mean, that does NOT represent what most of Trevecca’s professors/administrators/students believe. Until you come and see and have those honest conversations, there is NO WAY that you can claim to understand them. NO WAY.
    3. Can you lay out EXACTLY what you have a problem with in this ‘emergent’ church? Also, can you please share with me what the definition of emergent is? I’ve heard too many conflicting things and i’m just confused….
    4. I believe that we are to love. Loving means understanding (or trying to), it means respecting (i don’t see a lot of that here, it all seems like bashing), and it means .. well. loving. Being like Christ. We do call ourselves Christians, don’t we.

    Anyway. I just wanted to ask. :)

  53. Hi Rebekah,
    Since you are new in posting here, I will take it that you are sincerely asking questions and sincerely want answers.
    So here goes:
    1. How do I know what they believe? Simple enough. I know it based on what they say they believe, and the kinds of practices they are participating in. I don’t have to go into conversations with them to know that they are accepting and practicing these mystical ideologies. I make no assumptions, other than basing them on cold hard facts. When I find out a student is using a prayer labyrinth, or centering prayer, I don’t have to have a conversation with him to know he is doing something wrong.

    2. I’m sure that not everything Dan Boone or others from Trevecca promote is accepted by everyone at Trevecca. Does that mean I should ignore the wrong stuff, because only a few might believe in it? No, we need to go after error wherever it appears. That is our duty as Christians, according to scripture. Sure I understand. I understand that what Dr. Bone calls good, is an evil practice (prayer labyrinths). I don’t have to come down and talk to him about it.

    =Can I lay out the problem with the emerging church? Well, read some of my blog entries, there is a wealth of information, from emergent ideology, to New Age practices, to disbelief in the genesis acccount of our creation by God. Specifically you can start with the following post, which is my main summary of what is going on: http://reformednazarene.wordpress.com/nazarene-denomination-losing-its-way/. If you still don’t understand, feel free to ask more questions if you don’t understand. For a definition of the emerging church, here is a simple one I posted: http://reformednazarene.wordpress.com/emergent-church-what-is-it/. Hope this helps the confusion, I know what you mean, some emergents are like moving targets, they try to hide their aberrant beliefs in public.

    4. I agree, we are to love. Let me give you an example of tough love, which Jesus and the apostles all did when they confronted false teaching. In the account of Paul’s encounter with Elymas the false teacher, he called Elymas a “son of the devil”, and asked him why he was “perverting the Lord’s ways.” That’s how false teachers are to be handled. They need to be reproved and rebuked, and exposed if necessary. Now, a person being deceived by false teachers- needs to be handled with gentleness, because they are misled- they are not deliberately teaching doctrines of demons. That certainly is a difference, and I always try to be patient with those who have fallen for false doctrine. But love does not always mean to ignore those who are peddling doctrines of demons that could cause someone to walk away from the Lord. That is serious business. (Galatians 1:6-10)

    So to me, being like Christ is to be like Him in every situation, but all situations are not the same. i cannot stand idly by while false teachers are robbing our youth of the true gospel. i care too much for them to keep quiet.

    Hope this helps, and I pray sincerely you will find answers. Stick to the word of God, and not the word of men, and you cannot go wrong, Rebekah! God bless you, and if you have any questions, my email is: reformednazarene@hotmail.com
    Blessings,
    Manny

  54. thank you so much for responding to me so quickly. I really appreciate that.
    can i just go back to number 1 on this…
    I totally can agree with you…mostly. I don’t think it is ‘mystical ideologies’ or whatever to participate in this. I assume that you are talking about Trevecca in this? From what I understand, the labyrinth (which is no longer called that because of its ‘mystical’ implications) was not what you think it is. From what i know, it was solely based on quieting ones heart and focusing on God. This was done through a series of stations that asked you to think of something specific to pray about. And also, aren’t we told to meditate on Christ, his words, him himself? How is a centering prayer wrong if that is exactly what it is asking you to do?
    I think you can only judge something rightly by the fruit that it bears….that is what my bible has written in it at least! : ) So I say that before anything is said about that, that we must look at the fruit. I can’t see anything wrong in what Trevecca is doing, honestly. Or NTS or Olivet or SNU or Point Loma or any other.
    2. I don’t think that you can possibly understand what someone believes or how they think without having conversation. i mentioned that in my first question, i think. Yes, i do believe if error is seen that it should be called out…but only in honest conversation. we are given a guide of how to do that in scripture, too. It also involves open, honest, true to god conversations. so again, i say that there is NO WAY for you to claim to know what Dr. Boone is saying or teaching unless you hear it from the man himself. Then if you see error in it, please, do call it out. and then be willing to be engaged in conversation with him about it. Or anyone else, for that matter.
    3. Ok. You kinda made me mad at the end of this one, i’m not going to lie. How ridiculously unfair of you to say that that. seriously? I am sure that some of them do not just outright say what they believe, but neither do a lot of other non-emergent people. So… please don’t just throw that at them. you also have to throw it to every other group as well.
    You say in one of those articles how the emergent church is seeking to go back to how the nazarene church started. This is the definition of emergent church that i understood….a movement headed back to the core of Jesus’ teaching. back to what the beginners of the nazarene church started as. From everything that i have read from who you say is ‘emergent’ i see nothing but a going back to Christ’s words and teachings. Am I wrong on that? and if so, can you please just spell it out simply for me? What exactly is it about the emergent church that is so wrong and defying God.
    4. I do completely agree. Pointing out the wrongs is absolutely necessary. I just wonder if you or any other ‘concerned’ nazarenes do know what you are pointing out. the heart of it. I fully believe in using some ‘tough love’. what a great thing! but that tough love does not mean just rebuking. it also means talking with and trying to teach. i’m pretty convinced that if jesus heard somebody speaking falsely he would sit there with them and talk it out, try to teach them rightly. isn’t that kinda what he came to do? to teach us what the Law really meant?

    let me finish with saying that i respect you a lot for standing up for what you believe. I can only hope that more people will do the same.

  55. Rebekah, thanks for your thoughts,

    Dan Boone changed the name of prayer labyrinth after I exposed what they were doing, as well as the trips to the monastery. Changing a name of a practice to something else does not change what it is. It is a ritual that comes from pagan religions, and has simply been dressed up to try to look Christian.
    Centering prayer is also not biblical. It is one of the contemplative prayer practices that comes from the Eastern religions, and its ultimate purpose is to “empty the mind”, in order to “experience” God. Practicing the silences was advocated at that retreat in Kentucky. Since when is silence in order to somehow allow God to “come in” biblical? If you search the scriptures, there is nothing that support sit. Dan Boone justified it by quoting Psalm 46:10. Please, if you are sincerely seeking truth, read the entire chapter of Psalm 46, and then tell me whether you agree that this chapter implies in any way, that we should practice the silence, or do centering prayer.
    True prayer is communication with God- with a sober mind, an alert mind. There is nothing in scripture to justify “silence” and emptying the mind as a form of prayer. If there is, please show me, Rebekah. I am still waiting for Dan Boone to do it. We’ve had some good conversations, as you say should be done, but nothing has come of it.

    Rebekah, you need to biblically defend what you are saying- not just say you don’t think there is anything wrong. Our measure of what is right or wrong is the scriptures, and I have made my arguments time and time again to show why we oppose this emergent movement. You need to do the same, with all respect. I cannot accept that you don’t agree or think these things are okay. You need to show me scripturally where I am wrong, or where these schools are right. None have been able to do that, and believe, many of us have written or spoken with the leadership at these schools. They have all failed in explaining these things biblically.

    Again, I don’t need to have a conversation in order to find out if someone is in error. If I know my best friend is having an affair with someone, I don’t need to have a conversation to point out to him that he is in error. You see what I’m saying? Someone practicing the silence can tell me all they want, that it is good for them, that they feel closer to God, and it does not change the fact that centering prayer is unbiblical. I know what Dan Boone is teaching; he admits it himself. I and many others believe that this contemplative stuff is unbiblical, and no amount of conversations is going to change that.

    Rebekah, I think you misread my article. The emergent church movement is not trying to go back to the roots of the Nazarene denomination. They are trying to dismantle it. Please read some more, I can’t go into all of it again here.
    You “see nothing but a going back to Christ’s words and teachings?” I don’t know where you see that, so please, again, read for yourself what emergents believe, and you will see that they are rejecting many of the core teachings of scripture.

    And yes- we do know what we are pointing out. Again, if you honestly want to find out what we think, read more here, or on Tim Wirth’s blog Psalm 11:3, or exnazarene, or Concerned Nazarenes website, or Sue Butler’s blog sadnazarene. We document and give plenty of evidence for the decline that is going on in our denomination. Yet, if you read most of the writings of the emergents, it is always personal attack with NO biblical defense of their positions. Why? Because they don’t respect the word of God! They don’t even think it is the inspired, infallible word of God!

    Regarding the tough love thing, here’s what I do. I work as kindly and gently with someone who I believe is deceived and confused. I try to lead them to the truth of the word, and “refute” what they believe, with the word of God.
    However, those who are clearly false teachers and spreading unbiblical teachings, will get as serious a rebuke as they deserve, because they are knowingly spreading lies, and they cannot get away with it without challenge.

    What about you, Rebekah. What are your views on that? Do you believe the Bible is the fully inspired word of God? Or that Adam and Eve were real? Do you disagree with Tom Oord at NNU, who teaches that God does not know the future? Or that God learns from His mistakes? Tell me a little about your faith, and what you believe as a Christian, compared to what the emergents believe?

    Whether you answer these questions or not, I pray that you will sincerely seek the truth, and to do that, there is no better way than to get deeply into understanding the word of God. Test the spirits, and don’t accept anything unless you check it out in the Bible. Be a Berean.

    I really would like to know.
    Blessings,
    Manny

  56. Yep. the name was changed. Because it implied something that it wasn’t. Can something not be changed to focus on God? I mean, Christmas was changed. We still celebrate that. And I think that centering prayer isn’t a bad thing. No, they are NOT saying ‘empty’ your mind. They are saying to focus your mind on the Creator. On God. What is wrong with that?
    I agree with you! Prayer is most definitely a conversation. This is just shutting up long enough for him to quiet your mind and get your attention. No, something like a centering prayer is not necessary for that. God can speak to us in any kind of way. I believe that with my whole being.
    Also, where are those conversations?

    i’m not offended at all by you asking me to biblically defend myself. I disagree with that term though. Biblically defend. I don’t know, defend just sounds a bit to in your face. But anyway, that doesn’t matter. its just a figure of speech. I don’t believe in ‘proof-texting’ so. not gonna do that. But i do think that if we look at the life of Christ, we will see how he ‘silenced’ himself in order that the Father might speak to him. We also see how he fasted, in order that the Father might speak to him. We also see how he communed with sinners. We also see how he communed by way of conversation with his disciples as well as the sinners he was hanging out with. I say, just look at the life of the one who fully completely embodied the scriptures. Look to the Word of God and hold everything up to judgement by way of comparing it to him. Because he IS the perfect one.

    I understand what you are saying, i just don’t see how it is unbiblical. That is where i am having the problem understanding you…..
    If your best friend is having an affair, you would confront him. I would confront him to. Then talk to him, explain what he is doing wrong, and encourage him to stop it. I know that is what you are doing here, but i think maybe the problem is, again, that it is just a misunderstanding. Really, at the core of this whole discussion, i feel like it is a misunderstanding and miscommunication by both sides.

    I have read many books by the authors that you have labeled as ‘emergent’. In them, i see nothing (for the most part) that goes against the teachings of scripture. From everyone i have heard speak that you consider ‘emergent’ they have only preached straight from the scripture and dived into what it truly means. Of course, i do not agree with every book that i have read. I don’t agree with all of their theology or beliefs. People disagree on things, that’s where the conversations need to begin.

    And in your next paragraph, again. You and I both know that what you said is an unfair, completely ridiculous generalization. I’m not trying to offend you in any kind of way, like i said, i totally respect you and appreciate you explaining this to me. But really to say that is not true. No, from what i understand the ‘emergent’ people don’t believe that it is the infallible word of God. That doesn’t mean it isn’t inspired. And that is just something more to talk about! it is something not fully communicated or understood by either side of this whole issue of concerned against emergent.
    I’ve read a lot of this website. I’ve read it now for … a long time. and i am so discouraged to see such division in the Body. Christ himself prayed for unity and for oneness. Thats biblical.

    Ok, well what if a ‘false teacher’ doesn’t know that they are teaching falsely? what if they are just as decieved? why wouldn’t you deal with them as gently as any other? and why would you deal with any one harshly at all!? that is not loving. there is always a way to approach a disagreement or a pointing out of wrongs in a loving manner…

    As for my beliefs, why does it matter? I am just seeking to understand what this is all about.

    But i will tell you this. I know that there is one God. And he is three in one. I believe that Christ’s work on the cross has brought me into reconciliation again with the Father. I was separated by sin, but no longer because I am a new creature. I believe that when we pray that god’s kingdom will come on earth as it is in heaven that we should not just anticipate it, but expect it. I fully believe that we can see God in ‘the least of these’. that being the alcholic that i spend a good amount of my time with. that could mean the homeless man that i sit down beside on the curb to sing a tune with. that could be the child i pass being pushed in his stroller. God can show up in the still, quiet breeze or the beauty of a mountain side.
    God’s Kingdom is here and now, but not fully yet. It is here because his people are here and we live not in this world, but in his kingdom. that’s two different things. but they’re mushed into the same time…for now.
    I believe that God is Love. That Christ shows/teaches that Love. and that the Spirit teaches us/shows us how to Love.

    Please also know that all i am trying to do is seek the truth, but in order to do so, must know through what i’m having to seek through. that’s why i’m trying so hard to understand all of this. because i have to seek and find out what is truth.
    And more again, i do respect you, Manny, and I sincerely hope that you are not taking anything that i have said as rude, ignorant, or accusing. I promise you that was not my intention at all.

  57. Rebekah,
    You said a lot there that I cannot respond to yet. I am unsure where you are coming from in some basic things, so before I answer I would like to know:

    1. Do you trust the Bible as the word of God completely? I think that can be a straight forward answer. I believe that is a critical thing to know about someone, because you did not answer some of my questions about Adam and Eve, God not knowing the future, or God making mistakes. So, do you trust the Bible in all that it teaches us? Then we can go from there to answer your points.
    2. Who are the emergent writers you are talking about that you say you don’t have any problem with?

  58. Rebekah, “As for my beliefs, why does it matter? I am just seeking to understand what this is all about.”

    It matters. This is where the issue resides. If your World view is taken from the Bible as a primary source then what seems to be “negotiable” is not negotiable. If human authors have as much weight as the Bible and it’s Biblically inspired authors then these discussions will not ever resolve.

  59. I’m sorry. i said that in the wrong way, Pam. I wasn’t saying that what I believe doesn’t matter. I am just saying that I don’t want this to be about my beliefs or opinions. I am simply wanting to hear the facts on all of these issues. I’m sorry for the confusion on that!

    Can you clear up your first comment a bit for me? I don’t want to misunderstand. What do you mean exactly by that whole second paragraph. I’m sorry for asking you to basically repeat yourself, but i just want to fully comprehend what you are talking about.

    As for the article, yes. I agree with it. We do have to be taught how to read. I think it is incredibly important to study the source from which what we are reading comes from. We SHOULD seek to understand the original language and the author and the times and … everything else! The article says that in the fourth paragraph. This is why we have schools, according to the article. I think that having a school where you can learn Greek or Christian Tradition or take religion classes that dive into the texts of scriptures specifically is awesome. and also biblical. We’re supposed to be studying this witness to the story of God. It is how he reveals himself (one of the ways at least) : )

    What did you think of the article?

  60. OH! i forgot to answer your questions Manny. My bad.

    I do trust the Bible. I believe its the witness to the revelation of God. Yes.
    Yep. Adam and Eve were real.
    And i don’t know enough about what was said at NNU because i haven’t listened to it/read it for myself. i don’t want to ‘agree or disagree’ with him because i don’;t even know what he said. I would have to look at the whole thing, context and all instead of taking one quote and going off of that. that would not be fair to him if i did so.

    I haven’t read very many books. I have read some of Brian McLaren and Rob Bell and Shane Claiborne. Oh, and Dr. John Perkins. I actually spent about a week with him in Mississippi.
    And i don’t agree with absolutely everything that they’ve said. Is there ever anything that everyone will completely agree with? Not usually.
    I’ve also read some Yoder and Fratheim and Barth. As well as some others. I don’t know what you would label them as, but i liked it. I think all of these people mentioned have good things to say.

  61. Thank you, Rebekah. maybe we are getting somewhere now.

    Let me make it clear again: the Bible is the infallible word of God, and the only completely reliable source for our faith and practice. All else that anyone- anyone- says or writes must be put to the test of scripture, or it is thrown out. I hope you agree there too, otherwise, we will be miles apart on hat important point.

    Feel free to review the following lecture at NNU. it is one hour long, but worth looking at to see what is being allowed to be taught our students. Please let me know what you think of it- in light of what scripture teaches- not anyone else’s opinions please:
    http://reformednazarene.wordpress.com/2010/09/06/false-teaching-in-a-christian-university-a-shocking-example/

    As far as Tom Oord, he believes that God does not know the future, and that God makes mistakes, and that Adam and Eve were note real. I spoke with him personally about that last one, he disagreed with what Romans chapter 5 says! What do you say about someone teaching that to young people?

    Brian McLaren, Rob Bell are clearly false teachers, based on what they have taught and said. There is plenty of information on this website and others for you to read about both of them. I’ll help you if you really want to know where they stand on many issues. But they are false teachers, and need to be constantly exposed. If you can show me that they are not teaching false doctrine, I would be glad to hear it- but it must be compared to what the Bible teaches- or you are wasting your time here.

    “Galatians 1:6-10 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! ”

    Pam was very correct in her comment. Belief is very important, and the emerging church people try very hard to downplay belief, because its all about whatever you believe, as long as we love, or some other kind of nonsense. And that’s what it is, Rebekah, nonsense. Jesus asked us, how can we love Him, if we don’t keep all His commandments? Right belief, and obeying all that Jesus and the apostles commanded, is vital to the Christian’s walk with the Lord.

    Regarding the emergents you have read: the point here, Rebekah, is not whether you agree with everything they said. The point is, are they teaching false doctrine? That is the question. I can disagree with someone about certains things as a Christian, but those things don’t fall under doctrinal certainty. But if McLaren and Bell TEACH and promote false doctrine, they need to be called out on it.

    I don’t care if Rob Bell has good things to say; I have seen some very good things he has said. But the other things he says, that can mislead young Christians, are not to be swept under the rug, Rebekah! That is an abdication of our Christian duty. These guys are dangerous for exactly that reason- they sound nice, they are nice people in person- but the best wolves are the ones who say a lot of nice stuff, but sneak in their poison to undiscerning Christians who don’t know any better. Do you agree with that, or not? Do you agree that we should expose false teachers who are spreading their stuff sometimes to millions at a time on TV.

    Stick to the Bible. Spend much time in it. Don’t fall for the smooth talking language of Bell and Mclaren.

    Blessings
    Manny

  62. Rebekah, when I asked your beliefs I don’t mean to corner you to get the “correct” answer. Your comments come across as very sincere and heartfelt and I have a lot of respect for you.

    Regarding the link, I love the last paragraph. It does of great job of explaining the practical application of Biblical discernment and John 1:14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

    We as the Biblical church of Christ need to read and know what the Bible says to have a Biblical worldview. This is different from Historical Christianity. The Emergents take their world view from Historical Christianity. It may seem subtle and vague to some but it is a Grand Canyon to us. When you study the Bible you know who speaks from a Biblical World view. It is not because we are better or more Godly, but it is because our ears are tuned to God’s words from the Bible.

  63. Absolutely. I think everything anyone says needs to be held up to the light of the Word of God and see if it holds true. I don’t doubt that one bit! That has been my point in some of these other posts we’ve had!

    I couldn’t access the full lecture that Dr. McDaniel gave, only your quick 11 minute review. Could you send me the link for the whole lecture, please? I would LOVE to hear all of it, just to understand what we’re talking about here.

    I still don’t want to comment on Oord. I don’t know what he is saying or teaching. I want to read it for myself. I fully agree with Romans 5, if that’s what you’re asking me though. I don’t know what he is teaching, therefore, i’m not going to say it is false. but i’m not saying it isn’t false though! please don’t take it as that. Can you tell me what he disagreed with about it? how did that conversation go?

    I assure you, yet again, that i am only honestly seeking to understand. I’ve made it a point to say that in almost every post. I am not trying to waste your time, promise! And i’m definitely not wasting any of my time…this is all a part of me wanting and trying to understand this issue of ‘concerned against anyone who isn’t concerned’. And I’m sure there’s something better you could be doing with it than sitting here posting back and forth with me, so i’m trying not to waste your time either.

    I read McLaren’s Everything Must Change. I thought it was great. He starts by asking two major questions. what are the major crises in our world and what do the life/message/teachings of Jesus have to say to that? how is that not holding something up to scripture for truth. He is clearly looking to the scriptures to read the life of Christ in order to understand how to approach the problems in the world today. Is that what you have a problem with with McLaren.
    Rob Bell: I have not read very many of his books. but he does have some great things to talk about, again, all held up in light of scripture.
    Can you please maybe just tell me what it is that either of these (also any other authors/speakers that you want to include on this conversation!) people have said that is unbiblical? That’d be helpful. Let’s just lay it all out.

    What a beautiful section of verses. Wow. I just get chills everytime i read it. : )

    What are you getting that from? the ‘fact’ that they don’t care about belief as long as you love? I do agree, again, that everything must be held up to Christ. Especially since he is the literally embodiment/fulfillment/en-fleshment of what we say we believe.

    I’m not saying to sweep anything at all under the rug! Nonono! I understand what you mean by a wolf in sheeps clothing. But what if it is a wolf that got dresses slowly? we didn’t even see him silently, slowly sneak in? do you think that is possible? Yes. I do believe that when someone says something false, that it should be pointed out.

    I promise you that i’m not ‘falling for’ any ‘smooth talking’. I do however, agree with Bell and McLaren. I have read what they have to say. I have compared it and held it up to the Word, and it holds true. That is what I will believe. I refuse to take what someone says and believe it just because they say it. I was told to do that for 17 years, in a Nazarene Church mind you! I will no longer. I will find the truth through seeking God.

  64. Rebekah,

    Here is Dr. McDaniel’s lecture in full: http://sureynot.com/v/999/dr.-jay-mcdaniel.html

    After watching it, Rebekah, let me know your opinion: is he a false teacher?. Is he okay and would you let him teach your children or future children? Or you are not sure. I know my answer already from just watching the first 30 minutes or so. The rest confirmed it.

    Dr. Oord lectured at ENC last year. At the end, I stated to him, after he posed the problem of why we have evil and death in this world, my answer to that question. I said that Romans 5 clearly tells us that death and sin came into the world because of Adam’s disobedience. I don’t remember the exact quote, but his answer was “I guess we’ll have to disagree to disagree on that.” And Rebekah, whether you know Dr. Oord teaches that God does not know the future or not (open theism), which he clearly does, and he will tell you that- do you agree with that, no matter who teaches it? Doers God make mistakes and learns from them? He teaches that also (process theology).

    I’m a bit concerned that you think Mclaren is okay, but maybe you have not read up enough on him. I have written some posts here, but check this post which lists a ton of his “unorthodox comments”: http://thinkerup.blogspot.com/2006/09/brian-mclarens-unorthodox-quotes_07.html

    Let me know what you think, and perhaps comment on a few of them, for instance, what do you think of these here:

    “Frankly, many of us don’t know what we should think about homosexuality. We’ve heard all sides but no position has yet won our confidence so that we can say “it seems good to the Holy Spirit and us.”
    –Brian McLaren on the Homosexual Question, Out of Ur, Jan. 2006

    “Tony [Campolo] and I might disagree on the details, but I think we are both trying to find an alternative to both traditional Universalism and the narrow, exclusivist understanding of hell [that unless you explicitly accept and follow Jesus, you are excluded from eternal life with God and destined for hell].”
    –Brian McLaren’s Inferno 2, Out of Ur, May 2006

    “The church latched on to that old doctrine of original sin like a dog to a stick, and before you knew it, the whole gospel got twisted around it. Instead of being God’s big message of saving love for the whole world, the gospel became a little bit of secret information on how to solve the pesky legal problem of original sin.”
    –Brian McLaren, The Last Word and the Word After That, p.134

    I could go on and on, but maybe you can tell me what you think of these statements by him. And they are not out of context.

    You said: “I do however, agree with Bell and McLaren. I have read what they have to say. I have compared it and held it up to the Word, and it holds true.” Perhaps you have not read enough, because much of what they write is unbiblical.

    Now, you keep asking me to tell you what I think about them. Please read my posts on Bell and McLaren. I don’t really want to retype everything again, if you understand. Here are the links:

    http://reformednazarene.wordpress.com/2009/03/11/rob-bell-a-modern-day-gnostic/

    http://reformednazarene.wordpress.com/2009/10/26/rob-bell-more-messed-up-emergent-theology/

    http://reformednazarene.wordpress.com/2009/06/09/rob-bell%E2%80%99s-abstract-%E2%80%9Celvis%E2%80%9D/

    http://reformednazarene.wordpress.com/2009/08/19/emergent-ideology-is-here-what-will-you-do/

    On McLaren:

    http://reformednazarene.wordpress.com/2009/02/20/a-sampling-of-brian-mclarens-views/

    http://reformednazarene.wordpress.com/2009/06/17/brian-mclarens-hope-for-the-future-the-minds-of-your-grandchildren/

    http://reformednazarene.wordpress.com/2009/08/28/brian-mclaren-celebrates-ramadan-nazarenes-too/

  65. Rebekah, on McLaren… he told me personally that he doesn’t believe in praying for people to accept Jesus as Lord and Savior.

    There is no way they can hold a candle to the apostle Paul.

    Colossians 2:1-8

    1 I want you to know how hard I am contending for you and for those at Laodicea, and for all who have not met me personally. 2 My goal is that they may be encouraged in heart and united in love, so that they may have the full riches of complete understanding, in order that they may know the mystery of God, namely, Christ, 3 in whom are hidden all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge. 4 I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments. 5 For though I am absent from you in body, I am present with you in spirit and delight to see how disciplined you are and how firm your faith in Christ is.

    6 So then, just as you received Christ Jesus as Lord, continue to live your lives in him, 7 rooted and built up in him, strengthened in the faith as you were taught, and overflowing with thankfulness.
    8 See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the elemental spiritual forces of this world rather than on Christ.

    9 For in Christ all the fullness of the Deity lives in bodily form, 10 and in Christ you have been brought to fullness. He is the head over every power and authority. 11 In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not performed by human hands. Your whole self ruled by the flesh was put off when you were circumcised by Christ, 12 having been buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through your faith in the working of God, who raised him from the dead.

    13 When you were dead in your sins and in the uncircumcision of your flesh, God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, 14 having canceled the charge of our legal indebtedness, which stood against us and condemned us; he has taken it away, nailing it to the cross. 15 And having disarmed the powers and authorities, he made a public spectacle of them, triumphing over them by the cross.

  66. Pam, once again, a fantastic passage. I want to know what context Mclaren used that in, because I kinda think it may have been misunderstood, no offense. I am simply refusing to say anything on this because i don’t know what he actually said. and i can’t sit in front of him or message him in order to ask him to expand. if i had that chance, i would love to ask. And then, if i disagreed i would talk even more, and then we would have conversations and it’d be great.

    Manny, I would not have a problem with him speaking to my kids. At all. However I hope that i had raised them in a way that they would NOT take what he says for truth, but seek out the Truth for themselves. I would also have encouraged them enough to go up to him afterward and ask to talk. so that they may better understand what he is saying. and that he may better understand what they are saying. i hope to have taught them not to have their minds so closed that they are unwilling to hear anyone else out. Now, i will go ahead and clear that statement up for you. i am in no way saying that they should have their minds open to the point of anyone can say anything and because it sounds good they accept it. i’m saying i want them to listen.

    Ok. well. as for the quotes, I know that we disagree based of of the posts you sent me.and that’s fine. i say we just have a chat with god about it when the kingdom comes in its fullness. because if we disagree on it, that’s fine. its not a matter affecting our salvation.

    Manny, earlier you asked me what i believe. would it be ok for me to ask you the same thing? I mean, it only seems fair….

    And pam, please know that i appreciate your comments as well! thank you!

  67. Rebekah,
    Let me be honest. I am very concerned, based on your statements, that you have been deceived. For you to say that you would need to talk to McLaren more, or anyone else for that matter, is… absurd I think. Imagine how many people would need to talk to McLaren, before they could decide if he was a false teacher or not! Jesus said” ” by their fruits you will know them.” I know his fruits, and Brian McLaren is a false teacher. There is absolutely no contextual misunderstanding with what he says in his books.
    He is a smooth, false teacher, who actually can be spotted pretty easily by any discerning Christian who knows their scripture.

    For you not to see that means you do not have much grasp of the scriptures, because all the evidence is out there. You either have not read what I sent you, or you are determined to remain in this state of deception. For that I feel really bad for you, and I will pray that’s God’s Holy Spirit will open your eyes.

    I will leave you with this YouTube link I recently posted. Dr. Michael Youssef is doing a series called: Truth, The Most Endangered Species. In this 10 minute clip, he mentions Rob Bell and Mclaren sometime soon after the 2:00 minute mark. Dr. Yousseff is just about the most solid preacher I have listened to in many years, besides my own pastor.

    May God help you in the search for biblical truth- because you will not find the truth in any other way but through God’s word. I will pray for you, because your comfort level with these false teachers is of concern to me. I don’t think I can give you any more than I have,

    (What I believe is simple to summarize: I believe in the God of the Bible. That Jesus Christ died for my sins on the Cross, and through Him I have salvation. The true Christian will seek holiness in his life, because the Bible says without holiness no one shall see the Lord. And finally, I believe that we ought to obey Christ in all He commands, and obey what we are taught in scripture by Jesus and the apostles.
    I believe in the substitutionary atonement of Christ on the Cross- Brian McLaren DOES NOT.
    I believe unless a person repents of their sins and accepts Christ, he is going to eternal punishment- Brian McLaren DOES NOT.
    I believe that Peter sank in the water because he lost faith in Jesus- Rob Bell DOES NOT.
    I believe homosexuality is a sin according to the Bible- Brian McLaren is confused at best-and he’s a pastor.
    I believe in a literal hell- Brian McLaren DOES NOT.
    I believe in separation from the world AS scripture teaches- Brian McLaren DOES NOT.
    I believe that Christ was sent by God to save the world (people)- NOT to save planet earth as McLaren believes.
    I believe Jesus when He said we can KNOW THE TRUTH- Brian McLaren DOES NOT.
    I believe Jesus is unique amongst all others- Brian McLaren DOES NOT, and puts Him on the same level as Ghandi.
    I believe we should not use pagan practices as the Bible says- Brian McLaren encourages use of Buddhist rituals.

    I could go on and on, but I think that’s enough.

    May God help open your eyes, and the eyes of all those who have bought into the lies of the emergent church.

    Manny

  68. Rebekah you said, “And then, if i disagreed i would talk even more, and then we would have conversations and it’d be great.”

    I didn’t see it that way then or now.

  69. Manny,

    There is an old saying, “you are what you eat.” I think the same can be said for, “you are what you read,” especially given how it impacts your life upon what or whom you build your belief system.

    Education today, what is being taught, and who is allowed to teach is of paramount importance and can no longer be ignored considering what is at stake as you have pointed out.

    I believe what is happening now can be linked to an earlier educational system failure which influenced and continues to influence every facet of society including the literature and moral decline we are seeing.

    In an article “Look How Far Our Nation Has Moved” written by David C. Gibbs, in the April 2000 edition of “The Legal Alert.” Mr. Gibbs gives us a preview of what happened to one of our most prestigious colleges in America. Allow me to illustrate.

    Harvard was founded in 1636, and was named for its first benefactor John Harvard a young minister. Josiah Quincy, them president of Harvard in the early Nineteenth Century adopted a seal and motto that “Thuth” was to be found only in Scripture, not in word’s of man’s devising.

    Later the motto “Truth” was changed first to “In Christi Gloriam” meaning “In Christ be Glory.” This was later changed to “Christo et Ecclesiae” meaning “For Christ and Church.” These changes were made because of the growing concern by the overseers that “Christ’ not be removed from the instructions provided by the college.

    This truth lasted for over two hundred years and in 1869, Charles William Eliot who was a follower of Charles Darwin took over the school. The new president determined that education should involve only truth and not “Christ or the Church.” This so-called truth was to be determined by men. Eliot was determined to infuse all teaching at Harvard with evolutionary philosophies.

    Harvard will soon celebrate its 375th anniversary in 2011. What is interesting the Divinity school was established in 1816, this was 53 years before Eliot. You draw your own conclusions. Today its students and faculty come from a variety of religious backgrounds. They attempt to balance theology and religious studies with that of the secular perspective on religion.

    Their Unitarian Univeralist approach defines them as non-creedal and not limited to Christian beliefs, but draws from other religions and philosophies. This syncretism is the attempt to reconcile different beliefs especially in theology, and mythology to merge an underlying unity for an inclusive approach to other faiths. Is this not what we are seeing today by the emergents?

    This worldly (false teaching) approach and Christ cannot co-exist in the same body. You may ask what does this have to do with the COTN. In my opinion our colleges are in danger of following the same path Harvard went down if we are not careful.

  70. Rebekah,
    I don’t think you heard a word I said. You ask again for McLaren’s fruits, and I gave you so much right in front of you. His words betray him.

    Again, I will continue to pray for you. There is not much more conversation you and I can have, until perhaps you either reject and embrace his heretical words. But you are “dancing” too much, and I don’t like to dance anymore.

  71. And Rebekah,
    I know you are from Tennessee, so I can see why you are defending Trevecca and all these schools, Dan Boone, etc. Trevecca’s leadership has clearly accepted a lot of these false ideologies, and I’m afraid perhaps that’s where you were affected by it. Sorry to see that.

  72. Yes, i did read your posts that you wrote that you sent me. and again, sorry, but we disagree. i suppose it is just going to have to end there if we can’t continue to have this conversation.

    I hate that you are claiming that trevecca has accepted these false ideologies, but i assure you that in every class, we only look at things through our ‘bible glasses’. everything i have heard in my classes has been consistently held up to the scriptures for conformation, or it wasn’t accepted.
    I would venture to say that i think it is the church, not just nazarene, that has fallen away from the teachings of Christ. I for one, just want to get back to doing what the one who saves me taught. And i believe that as long as we’re doing that, we are gonna be ok.

    Yes, I am from Trevecca. Im a major in Social Justice, and fully completely know that this is something that is close to the heart of God.

    I really don’t see the point in continuing this conversation either, especially since you’re no longer willing to talk about it.
    Sorry to hear that.
    it truly breaks my heart to see that when someone is honestly seeking the truth, they can’t do so without an ulterior motive, such as trying to pick a fight, make MY point, or defend a stupid university. I do love Trevecca, but it is just that. a school. i believe schools are very important, but you would know that from a previous post.

    i am defending what i believe, not what i have been ‘taught’ by trevecca, dan boone, or the Nazarene church has told me.

    Sorry, Manny. but i think this is going no where, and i think both of us are just getting frustrated. for that reason, i’m stopping. I hate that we disagree and i really wish that i could convince you to make the trip to Trevecca to see for yourself what you are actually claiming to know. To see if what you think is true. And if you do make it up here, please, i’d love to have some coffee with you or something. I’m a broke college girl working 3 jobs to pay for school, but i think i can spare the change for a good conversation every now and then. : )

    I really pray that we will BOTH seek out God and I know beyond a shadow of a doubt that if we are willing for him to do so, he will reveal himself and lead us to the Truth.

  73. Rebekah said, “I hate that we disagree.”

    Me too Rebekah, me too…

    The cup of coffee that you offered Manny sounds great. God Bless and I wish you the best. If I were in Tennessee I would buy you a Starbucks Super Grand Grande with the works for your effort and open heart.

  74. Rebekah, and TO ALL WHO HOLD SIMILAR VIEWS:

    We will agree to disagree, Rebekah. I am writing this to address not only you, but everyone else who might be reading this who think as you do regarding these issues.

    I DO NOT have any interest in having long conversations on this blog (because the facts have been laid out in many of my posts), unless those conversations can actually address the specifics of the issues IN RELATION to what scripture teaches. I am not interested so much in your personal opinions or feelings, unless those can be backed up by the word of God. Sadly, you have failed to do this. I had hoped that it would happen and you could defend people like McLaren based on God’s word. Yet you could not comment on something like McLaren’s rejection of the substitutionary atonement of Christ, or his assertion that Buddhists can remain in their own religion and go to heaven, or his utter lack of Bible knowledge when it comes to the question of homosexual sin. This is either an inability to defend these positions, or an unwillingness to admit that you agree with these false positions.

    I have, and always will, scrutinize every teaching, every doctrine, from the emergent church or any other movement or person, by the word of God. Not my feelings. Not by sitting quietly waiting for God to “talk to me” in some kind of mystical experience. Not what I think is right or good for everyone. ONLY one criteria, the word of God. The Bible says: “For the word of God is living and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.” Heb. 4:12

    “All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 17That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works. II Tim. 3:16-17

    A few quick answers to your comments:

    1. You said: “I really don’t see the point in continuing this conversation either, especially since you’re no longer willing to talk about it.”
    No Rebekah, I am willing to talk. I’m just no longer interested in simply hearing that you disagree, without any substantiation as to why. That is not the point of our faith and beliefs. What I want to hear is your biblical rationale for defending all these belief systems and practices I am attacking. Dr. Boone could not defend it, and so far, not one pastor, teacher, or other person has been willing to tackle these issues from a true biblical perspective. Those who have claimed to do so, have twisted the scriptures- such as when Dr. Boone used Psalm 46:10 to justify contemplative prayer. Read that whole passgae, and you will know what I mean.

    2. You said: “i am defending what i believe, not what i have been ‘taught’ by trevecca, dan boone, or the Nazarene church has told me.”
    That’s good to say, but you have not defended what you believe based on the Bible; you have only said you disagree with me, and I have yet to see a biblical defense of any position of yours.

    3. You said: “I hate that we disagree and i really wish that i could convince you to make the trip to Trevecca to see for yourself what you are actually claiming to know. To see if what you think is true.”
    Perhaps that will happen someday, but a trip is not necessary to evaluate with scripture what is being promoted at Trevecca and these other schools such as NNU and PLNU. I am judging the fruit. As a famous theologian once said, “I am trying to judge you, but I am a fruit inspector.” I will obey scripture and judge the fruit, and test the spirits, to see whether they are of God.

    I will continue to rebuke those in leadership who need rebuking, and who need to be exposed. I will gently try to show a deceived believer where they are going wrong. And yet, I will also continue to pray for their repentance from their errors. Those prayers will include you, Rebekah. I wish you well.

    Manny

  75. Pam, thank you for what you just said. That speaks volumes to me. I would definitely take you up on that.
    It really means much for me to hear that encouragement, especially after this conversation. : )

    Thank you.

  76. Manny,
    “This is either an inability to defend these positions, or an unwillingness to admit that you agree with these false positions.” No. it is neither. As i said, i did not want this discussion to range to this because that was no where near the point of what i originally asked. all i wanted to know was what your ‘concerned nazarenes’ believe and what the ‘emergents’ believer. That was it. Thank you for trying to explain that. But this isn’t meant to be about me defending anything. Sorry that i’m not willing to go there. Now, if we were having a face to face talk, i would gladly.

    Hebrews 4 is a beautiful chapter. As is second timothy! And it should be remembered by all of us. What you said about how you hold things up to the scriptures? Yeah, i am doing that too. Again, i say that i will hope that everyone will continue to do exactly the same.

    I totally think contemplative prayer is biblical. How about we shut up sometimes and just sit in the silent joy wonder peace spirit filled love of the Father? how about we contemplate on his word, and meditate on that?
    2. Like i said, this is not at all about my beliefs, i only wish to know what you are saying and what they are saying. I’ll form my own opinion on the matter after i know that.

    You said, “I am judging the fruit. As a famous theologian once said, “I am trying to judge you, but I am a fruit inspector.” I will obey scripture and judge the fruit, and test the spirits, to see whether they are of God.” and i’m doing the same. even the fruit of Trevecca, the fruit of what you are saying and doing, and the fruits of what i am doing and plan to do.

    I feel like if you are going to be rebuking, manny, that you also need to look at yourself if someone ‘rebukes’ you. You know that was never my intention, and it still isn’t my intention. I’m just saying that you should not be so quick to pull out the speck in your brothers eye without checking the plank in your own first.

  77. Rebekah:

    You made some interesting remarks about what you believe, will and will not accept, as truth. Some of your remarks trouble me and I am unable to dismiss them because of the seriousness they convey.

    Example: “I don’t understand why this all has turned into such a big deal, honestly.” You see nothing wrong with what Trevecca is doing, or NTS, or Olivet or SNU, or Point Loma, or any other. Have you not weighed in the balance what is at stake here?

    You state, “I refuse to take what someone says and believe it just because they say it.” Your reason was, “that you were told to do that for 17 years in a Nazarene Church and you will no longer.” Yet you accept Bell and McLaren without question.

    Rebekah you stated “that I’m a major in Social Justice, and fully completely know that this is something that is close to the heart of God.” How do you know that without Biblical proof? Can you apply what is happening on the social scale today and say this is God at work?

    If I am correct, and I believe I am, Social Justice in broad terms commonly refers to the idea of creating an egalitarian society through progressive taxation, and redistribution of income and property. There are several Social Justice movements today. They are:

    The Green Party: They believe it is the right for all people to benefit equally from resources afforded by society.
    Liberation Theology: They construe the teachings of Jesus in terms of liberation from economic and political conditions. Which Jesus did not do.
    Social Gospel: In my opinion the most dangerous! This movement wrongly applies Christian ethics to social problems. They believe that humankind could rid its self of social evils by human efforts. This concept is completely false.

    Rebekah, I have no way of knowing which one of these or what you studied in your classes on Social Justice, but by some of your remarks and those you defend, I encourage you to take a closer look at what is being taught.

    I encourage you te re-read my comment posted earlier dated October 31, 2010 4:01pm.
    Lige

  78. Lige,
    what do you mean by ‘have you not weighed what is at stake here”? are you meaning do i not see the importance of if they are teaching falsely? because if they were, i’d get it. i was referring to not understanding why this has become such a big deal and so … out of control. i guess i should have used my words better. I really mean i don’t understand why it is so out of control.
    As for accepting something just because someone says it… My reason is more that that would be really stupid to do. I have a mind of my own. for the 17 years of being in that specific church, i wasn’t ‘allowed’ to use it you could say….I was told what to believe because it was just what we believed. the end. What a ridiculous thing! And so i started holding up what i was hearing to the word of God and guess what? it conflicted. Which means there’s a problem, right? As for Bell and Mclaren or Claiborne or Perkins or.. whoever. I assure you that i do the same with what i hear from them. hold it up to see if it stands true.
    so no. not without question.

    I’m glad that you asked me about my Social Justice degree! I think it is a very very misunderstood thing…. I know it is close to the heart of God because of passages in Isaiah, or Amos, or Nehemiah, or Micah (to say a few). All of these OT prophets speak of how god is upset with his people because of social issues. Like doing good.
    “and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God?” or how we come to God in all of these religious offerings and there’s blood on our hands.

    Oooo! or how Jesus talks about caring for the orphan and the widow and feeding people and putting clothes on them for them and giving them a drink or visiting them in prison! Well. actually. how jesus talks about doing all of that to him…by doing it to those people.

    or in James, “:Religion that is pure and undefiled before God, the Father, is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.”

    or this “I hate, I despise your feasts, and I take no delight in your solemn assemblies. Even though you offer me your burnt offerings and grain offerings, I will not accept them; and the peace offerings of your fattened animals, I will not look upon them. Take away from me the noise of your songs; to the melody of your harps I will not listen. But let justice roll down like waters, and righteousness like an ever-flowing stream.” thats actually one of my favorites.

    Even in the OT, the whole Jubilee year and Sabbatical year? that is like, the most fantastic example EVER of how God is dealing with the economic systems of the day! Its so cool. Too bad the Israelites didn’t really follow it through to its fullness, huh? : )

    I haven’t really studied up on any of those terms you used to describe or give examples of what you think Social Justice is. But in my classes here, and what i believe, is that Social Justice is about feeding, and clothing, and Jubilee-ing, and praying, and hoping, and visiting prisons, and seeing the Kingdom come on Earth as it is in Heaven, and following Christ and picking up our crosses and praying for the widows, oh not just praying though! and watching out for the marginalized because no one will listen to their voice. its also about recognizing that they DO have a voice of their own, but its just not being heard. because no one is willing. Social Justice is probably best described as the church being the Church.
    i hope that makes some sense to you.

    Thanks so much for asking Lige. I’d so much rather someone ask me than just stay in the ‘not actually knowing but think i know so i’m not going to ask’ zone.
    -Rebekah

  79. Thanks rebekah:

    Law and Grace are the two concepts taught in the Old and New Testament. Sin is man’s greatest enemy and is the one thing that will keep him estranged from God and keep him out of Heaven. The Bible is a book primarily and foremost of redemption, and social justice is secondary to importance.

    The 10 Commandments are divided into two segments, 4 and 6. The first 4 is man’s relationship to God and the last 6 is our relationship to each other. Without our keeping the first 4 we cannot keep the last 6.

    In the OT under the law man was unable to keep the law and a blood sacrifice had to be offered annually by the high priest for his sins. Man’s backsliding was not caused by social injustice, rather because he began to first turn away from God and worship the idols of his neighbors.

    Because of his unholy estate he could not even treat his fellow Israelite with the respect commanded in the last 6 commandments. God used his unholy (social) conduct to point this out to him and enlighten him of his sin. His soul had the greater value not his social. His social conduct was only an extension of his sin problem.

    In the NT, redemption remains the primary focal point for the Church. Grace was provided by our Lord Jesus Christ and what could not be achieved by the law in the OT could now be achieved by Grace.

    Through Grace we now can keep the 4 and 6 respectively and treat our fellow man with respect and dignity. Many today promote Social Justice as you described however, their social focus is substituted as a means of salvation. The world is not bound by this, and we can’t save the world by doing this.

    Jesus commanded for us to first make disciples (win souls) that is our first primary goal. Second to that the social skills that could not be acheived through the law can now be acheived on the level of Grace.
    Lige

  80. Rebekah, you said But let justice roll down like waters, and righteousness like an ever-flowing stream.” thats actually one of my favorites.

    I love that verse. How does a Social Justice major make this work in the secular world if you could do anything you want? Are you going to be a social worker, attorney or judge in the US or overseas?

  81. Lige, i’m not disagreeing with you on this. haha i agree with what you’ve presented. In no way does having a social justice major argue with that.
    I don’t believe necessarily that one is second to the other.
    i think they’re tied up in with each other. Basically, all of it can be summed up in Love God, love neighbor, right? But i don’t think you CAN love God without loving your neighbor, but you don’t know how to love your neighbor without loving God! does that make any sense? its the best i know how to present it.

    Pam, thanks. It is definitely one of the verses written on my wall. :)
    I think that we…not just social justice majors, but the Church…make this work by just doing it. It defys all that the current economic system tells us we should do to gain ‘status’.
    Go eat with the marginalized, o no!
    Live among the community that we try to always stay away from? Thats ridiculous!
    Or even things not so radical as all of that!
    Believe what you say and then act on it? Preposterous!
    It just kinda…turned around. And i think we are called to get away from this worlds take on what economy, justice, living, wellness, status, life should be and to follow the one that Christ showed us.

    As for me, i don’t know what i want to do. I do want to live among others though. I do want to be in a place where I can be of help. I know that’s anywhere, though! I want to be a Learner most of all. I want to go to places like the John Perkins Center, or go back anyway, and in a way ‘study’ what they have done there. You should definitely look it up, they have done amazing beautiful work there.
    Or the hundreds of other intentional communities, community development, etc places around.

    I just want to be a Learner.

  82. Rebekah:

    You stated , “I don’t believe necessarily that one is second to the other.” This statement to me is troubling and dangerous as stated.

    Allow me to explain an easy concept that puts one’s relationship with God as one thing and their relationship to their neighbor as another whereby one does not conflict with the other as to who is always supreme in their life but actually complement each other.

    There is a Royal Command found in the Old Testaments fundamental dynamics of holiness and how it saturated the lives of the Jewish people. This has been referred to as Israel’s “Watchword and Confession of Faith” throughout the ages known as the Shema Deut. [6:4-5].

    “Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God, the Lord is one! You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength.” The words “Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God, the Lord is one” has been thought to enshrine Judaism’s greatest contribution to the religious importance of all mankind.

    These words sums up the teaching of the First and Second Commandments of God, mainly that He alone is God who exclusive deserves our praise and worship. According to Jewish teachings every other Jewish belief circumvolved around it; all emerge from it, and all goes back to it.

    The following segment of the Shema, “You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your strength,” in simple language means that we shoud give God our total undivided allegiance. We must be willing to surrender our most treasured wishes and inclinations for the love of God.

    Worshipping God is serious business and should never be taken carelessly. When the Jews recite the words of the Shema all thoughts other than God’s oneness must be shut out.

    Jesus Himself confirmed this truth when asked by a lawyer, if this was and still remained the greatest Commandment for men to keep? Matt. [22:37-40] “Jesus said to him, ‘you shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind. This is the first and great Commandment. And the second is like it; You shall love your neighbor as yourself. On these two Commandments hang all the law and the prophets.”

    You shall love your neighbor as yourself is separate from our loving God. Unless we can keep the two seprate in our devotion, it will become easy for works to become our master. I hope Rebekah that you can see the difference.

    I have a book on holiness that I would like to email you if you send me your email address I will forward.
    Lige

  83. OK, so I looked up the definition of justice. Here it is…. as CS Lewis said it implies that there is a law. Are you talking about the Civil Law, Criminal Law, International Law or God’s law in his word.

    Definitions of ‘justice’ Princeton’s WordNet
    http://www.definitions.net/definition/justice

    1. (noun) justice, justness
    the quality of being just or fair

    2. (noun) justice
    judgment involved in the determination of rights and the assignment of rewards and punishments

    3. (noun) judge, justice, jurist
    a public official authorized to decide questions brought before a court of justice

    4. (noun) Department of Justice, Justice Department, Justice, DoJ
    the United States federal department responsible for enforcing federal laws (including the enforcement of all civil rights legislation); created in 1870

    Definitions of ‘justice’ Webster Dictionary

    1. (adj) justice
    the quality of being just; conformity to the principles of righteousness and rectitude in all things; strict performance of moral obligations; practical conformity to human or divine law; integrity in the dealings of men with each other; rectitude; equity; uprightness

    2. (adj) justice
    conformity to truth and reality in expressing opinions and in conduct; fair representation of facts respecting merit or demerit; honesty; fidelity; impartiality; as, the justice of a description or of a judgment; historical justice

    3. (adj) justice
    the rendering to every one his due or right; just treatment; requital of desert; merited reward or punishment; that which is due to one’s conduct or motives

    4. (adj) justice
    agreeableness to right; equity; justness; as, the justice of a claim

    5. (adj) justice
    a person duly commissioned to hold courts, or to try and decide controversies and administer justice

    6. (verb) justice
    to administer justice to

    Here is what it says Social means

    Definitions of ‘social’ Princeton’s WordNet
    http://www.definitions.net/definition/social

    1. (adj) sociable, social, mixer
    a party of people assembled to promote sociability and communal activity

    2. (adj) social, societal
    relating to human society and its members
    “social institutions”; “societal evolution”; “societal forces”; “social legislation”

    3. (adj) social
    living together or enjoying life in communities or organized groups
    “a human being is a social animal”; “mature social behavior”

    4. (adj) social
    relating to or belonging to or characteristic of high society
    “made fun of her being so social and high-toned”; “a social gossip colum”; “the society page”

    5. (adj) social
    composed of sociable people or formed for the purpose of sociability
    “a purely social club”; “the church has a large social hall”; “a social director”

    6. (adj) social
    tending to move or live together in groups or colonies of the same kind
    “ants are social insects”

    7. (adj) social
    marked by friendly companionship with others
    “a social cup of coffee”

    Definitions of ‘social’ Webster Dictionary

    1. (adj) social
    of or pertaining to society; relating to men living in society, or to the public as an aggregate body; as, social interest or concerns; social pleasure; social benefits; social happiness; social duties

    2. (adj) social
    ready or disposed to mix in friendly converse; companionable; sociable; as, a social person

    3. (adj) social
    consisting in union or mutual intercourse

    4. (adj) social
    naturally growing in groups or masses; — said of many individual plants of the same species

    5. (adj) social
    living in communities consisting of males, females, and neuters, as do ants and most bees

    6. (adj) social
    forming compound groups or colonies by budding from basal processes or stolons; as, the social ascidians

    So Rebekah, you want to apply a law to social groups. That is what it seems to break down to.

    The Bible verse was referring to a rigged judicial system where bribes determined justice. Amos 5:24 But let justice roll on like a river, righteousness like a never-failing stream! It seems that you need to know the law to determine if justice is being served.

  84. Lige. you are correct. I still believe that the two greatest commandments are interlocked. tied up in each other. you can’t fulfill one without fulfilling the other. that was what i was saying.
    “Worshipping God is serious business and should never be taken carelessly.” definitely agreed. how dare we claim him if we’re not willing to take up our own cross and do the same.
    As for the book you’ve offered me, thank you! can you just send me the title and author though? I think that would probably be better. : )

    Pam, ‘it seems that you need to know the law to determine if justice is being served’. In my classes here at Trevecca we look at the world around us. we see the fruits of the law and we study that law and we see how often times that law is keeping people oppressed and making the oppressors even higher. tell me thats not wrong.

    The social justice department here has 3 different concentrations. Public Policy (so…dealing with the law) Environmental (deals with the environment, obviously) and Non-Profit/Congregational Leadership (focusing on how to lead groups like a nonprofit or work in a church department). I am studying nonprofit.
    I would suggest that you go to Trevecca’s website to find out more about the center for social justice here. There is a great description or definition and even a video or two. : )

    Hope that helps!

  85. Rebecca:

    The book on holiness I referred to is not in print at this moment and may never be published. It is currently being reviewed by NPH for consideration.
    Lige

  86. “Pam, ‘it seems that you need to know the law to determine if justice is being served’. In my classes here at Trevecca we look at the world around us. we see the fruits of the law and we study that law and we see how often times that law is keeping people oppressed and making the oppressors even higher. tell me thats not wrong.”

    This reasoning seems very subjective. I don’t trust Social Architects who have Messianic dreams or refuse to define parameters. This is the Emergent pattern over and over and over again, just trust us to figure it out as we go…. we will figure it out.

  87. Pam, I am so unsure as to what what you said really means. What do you mean by saying that it sounds subjective?
    and what does having Messianic dreams mean exactly? cause…i’m really confused by what you’ve said. Really, really confused.

    Can you maybe explain what you’ve said? I’m not trying to be difficult, i promise! I’m sorry if you’re aggravated by me asking you to explain, but i just want to fully understand what you are saying.

  88. Let me try to explain it with the preface

    1. Humanitarian & Charity ideas that the church needs to do much much more, yep I’m on that bandwagon. How to do it…. I’m listening!!

    2. Christians holding International, national and local governments being salt and light…. it’s huge for Christians and we need to do more. I’m listening!!

    …we see the fruits of the law and we study that law and we see how often times that law is keeping people oppressed and making the oppressors even higher. tell me thats not wrong.

    I think the process you describes happens through Entire Sanctification of a person, family, city and country when God’s word is preached without apology from the pulpit.

    As Lige said, You state, “I refuse to take what someone says and believe it just because they say it.” Your reason was, “that you were told to do that for 17 years in a Nazarene Church and you will no longer.” Yet you accept Bell and McLaren without question.

    This is what I mean by Messianic dreams to fulfill goals with out putting them through Biblical process of evaluation and not holding yourself accountable to others.

    These Spiritual leaders’ words are accepted with out question and their stated goal is to change society and it’s laws. I find that terrifying.

    I don’t want to put you in a corner and say, think like I think and dress like I dress… this is how it is perceived and I think it is erroneous.

  89. Pam,
    I don’t know how many times i’ve said this already. i have not and will not accept what those people or any other has to say without holding it up to the word of god first. i have not accepted bell or mclaren without question.

    i sometimes think maybe society should be changed a little bit. im not going to say that the current system is working out. obviously it isn’t!

    For 1 and 2 of your post, YES! the church needs to be the Church. (please note the capitalization, it was intentional)!

    God’s word must be preached, yes, without apology. it can speak for itself….i think we would do well to remember that more often. but also, we must be the answers to the prayers we pray. if we pray that the homeless would be taken care of, we better be willing to be the way by which god chooses to do that.
    So there must also be action on our parts.

    Can I ask why you said that is terrifying? What about it? is it that changing society is just…hard? or unheard of? or maybe preposterous? because it IS all of those things. So was the society to which Jesus came preaching about. A society that touched the unclean leper or the blind. Or not jsut that, but healed them? That was some ridiculous stuff for his time.
    So why not now, too?
    it is still like a social sin to even talk about some of the issues. But i think that if jesus came preaching a kingdom where all of that happened and then told us to follow him into it, we should be practicing the same kind of thing.

    Pam, I’m sorry if i came across as defense in my previous post. I did not feel at all ‘pushed into a corner’! I know where i stand on this issue and i know that what i believe is proven. and most of all i know that the one i believe IN is proven and the only. because of that, i have nothing to be defensive about. :)

  90. I’m a current student at Trevecca, part of the class of 2013. Granted, I have only had one bible class so far, and i have been to the chapels we have to attend and many other chapels I didn’t have to attend.

    My mother is a graduate of Trevecca and has been an Ordained Minister in the Nazarene Church now for 5 years. We also attend Nashville First Church of the Nazarene. My parents met at NFCN and thats the church that I was born into, and still, as I near 20 years old attend (along with several of my closest friends).

    I used to wear my hair long, listen to heavy metal music, and hang out with people that maybe never have set foot in a church! I have cut the hair, and my music tastes now include every genre, but I still hang with those people every now and then when I come home from break.

    I say all of this to lead you into this, God wants us to love each other. Doesn’t matter who they are-love them!

    Here’s my take on the labyrinth thing that maybe ya’ll can understand better-in our crazy world, with cell phones that can update Twitter, Facebook, email, and change dinner reservations at the same time, all while streaming the 6:00 news, silence isn’t always around. Who has tried even going to the park and you can hear someone’s cell phone go off? I have. I cant ever walk somewhere without hearing about 100 different people’s days. I can’t even go fishing without hearing someone’s phone ring or them complain about their day!

    Jesus, before he was crucified, went into the Garden to pray to God and be alone. If we, in our crazy world, can’t find a place where total silence can be found, then we need to find one. If you are using a labyrinth for prayer, and you know what its originally used for, and are NOT using it for that, then it doesn’t matter.

    I attended NYC 07 in ST. Louis, Missouri. One of the speakers in a multi-track seminar had moved into an inner-city area and started out by playing basketball with the kids from that particular neighborhood at a public space. They became close enough to come to the church he started. He also said that this church doesn’t use “normal” methods on Sundays and Wednesdays. Their music was what the kids listened to the most-rap. They had games. But these boys, whom, if I recall, were in gangs and into drugs and whatnot, stopped all that, and now love Jesus and God very much, and that love has spread into their families.

    If we are to love God, bring others to him, accept others regardless of their appearance and their lack or abundance of wealth, and shine his light, then why are people bashing those that do it? So what if its a different method than you are used to? Its the same thing. If they accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and live the life God has called them to live, why do you have a problem with that? They are obeying God, they love God.

    Jesus accepted greedy tax collectors, the crippled, the blind and the poor. He did it even though HIS FOLLOWERS told him not to! Do you think he would if one of you “Concerned Nazarenes” or “Reformed Nazarenes” told him not to talk to a sick and homeless person living in somewhere as far away as Uganda, or as close to you as a few blocks away from you or your church? No. Jesus would show his love. Thats what we should do too. I have been to Puerto Rico(December 2009), Costa Rica(May 2010), and Nicaragua(May 2010), and have met people that are incredibly close to the Lord, some that were closer to him than I was at the time, and I’m sure that a few of them still are closer than I am. But they love the Lord and do things North American Nazarenes won’t typically do because, as my team and I were told, that’s what we were called to do.

    Thanks, ya’ll. -Joey

  91. Oh and Pam, I am confused to on your “Messianic” references. Please explain.

    Rebekah, whats your last name? We probably know each other?

  92. joey,
    if you haven’t already, i would very much encourage you to read these last few posts back and forth. We’ve had some very good conversation the last few days. I think you’d enjoy it. :)

    And yeah, we probably do know each other. haha

  93. Hi Joey,
    It’s going to be a busy Thanksgiving Day, so I won’t answer all of your questions today- but probably tomorrow.
    Just think on this thought for a day or so: Is it just enough for someone to become a Christian, and then after that, do whatever they want? Or is a true, authentic Christian someone who not only says that they have repented and received Christ, but then does what Jesus says must be done to truly show they are His- and that is, to keep His commandments. All of them. And to obey all that was taught clearly in scripture by Christ and the apostles.

    Think on that for the next few days, because what caught my attention was what you asked, “So what if its a different method than you are used to? Its the same thing.”

    Is it really the same thing? Think on this for a while. Think on what is the criteria for what a Christian should or should not do, and how do they determine that it is right or wrong, even if it seems right at first. Is it their gut feeling, is it their emotion? Is it because someone told them it’s a good thing? Or is it something else that determined if it’s good or not?

    Perhaps someone else might give you an answer here also on this.

    Have a great Thanksgiving.

    Blessings,

    manny

  94. Joey:

    I too am a graduate of Trevecca,(late 60′s). From then until now I believe the spiritual atmosphere has gradually changed and not for the good. Our institutions are now allowing to be taught what used to be taboo. This change is not limited to Trevecca but our other campuses as well, and is being taught in many of our churches as truth.

    Your understanding on Labyrinth is an interesting one and no doubt reflects what is now being taught at Trevecca. The problem with Labyrinth is what it represents, and serves no real purpose in one’s prayer life. In fact it contradicts what Jesus taught.

    I encourage you to read John [4:19-26] where Jesus said that we must worship in Spirit and in Truth not a specific location. With Labyrinth I find this hard to do. If anything it weakens one’s prayer life because: (1) It sets up the notion that I can only pray about a certain thing at a specific spot. (2) Our prayers become rote and can interfere with praying in the Spirit. (3) It limits our freedom of worship. (4) It promotes a feel good mood over true intercessory prayer..

    There is a lot being said about how we are to show the love of Christ. Many have opted to allow those to whom they are witnessing to bring the world into the sanctuary which is a violation of Scripture.

    The Roman Catholic allowed the pagans to keep some of their pagan ways if they would embrace Catholicism. In some ways we are doing the same thing by what we allow even though it goes against God’s Word.
    Lige

  95. Manny,
    you pointed out that joey said
    ” what if its a different method than you are used to? Its the same thing.”

    i just wanted to point out the second half of that, which joey said, “If they accept Jesus as their Lord and Savior, and live the life God has called them to live, why do you have a problem with that? They are obeying God, they love God.”

    so where is your problem with that? If people are doing what God has called them to do, what’s the issue?

    I hope you’re having a great Thanksgiving, Manny and Joey!

  96. Rebekah,
    If someone says that God has called them to do something, but what they say does not line up with scripture, then what they were “called to do” is not of God. Everything must be tested by the word of God.

  97. um…yes. i agree, manny.

    Lige,
    ” (1) It sets up the notion that I can only pray about a certain thing at a specific spot. (2) Our prayers become rote and can interfere with praying in the Spirit. (3) It limits our freedom of worship. (4) It promotes a feel good mood over true intercessory prayer..”
    all of what you have said here concerns me and lets me know how you see the labyrinth. But im going to tell you that no, none of that is true. It in no way says this is the only place to pray! NO WAY! it does provide a specific place, but doesn’t say that’s the only place
    2. sometimes, maybe our prayers to become ‘rote’. but that is present in any situation. weather in a prayer walk or in a pew.
    3. How do you perceive that happening here? are you saying that becuase the walk ‘guides’ what you are thinking on specifically that you can’t pray/worship about anything else? I don’t see that. You are given the freedom to worship God however you please, the walk just gives you a specific thing to think on for a few seconds, it doesn’t tell you how to worship, therefore, it is not limiting you.
    4. i couldn’t disagree more! have you ever walked through this? or looked deeply into it? i think if you did you would see what i’m saying…. not ‘feel good’. i actually felt pretty bad and like God had called me out on some stuff after i left there. the Spirit moves. He intercesses…I don’t think thats a real word. i just made it up.. :)

    Manny, again. I totally agree with you. if it conflicts with what God says to do, then it obviously isn’t of God, now is it? No. Again, that all goes back to looking at the fruits of someones actions. are they good or are they bad?

  98. Rebekah and Joey, give me a day to read, chew & pray about the last posts, I’ve been busy with the Turkey thing. God Bless and I wish you and all a Great Day.

  99. Rebekah’s November 24, 2010 at 11:46 pm post said,

    “Can I ask why you said that is terrifying? What about it? is it that changing society is just…hard? or unheard of? or maybe preposterous? because it IS all of those things. So was the society to which Jesus came preaching about. A society that touched the unclean leper or the blind. Or not jsut that, but healed them? That was some ridiculous stuff for his time.
    So why not now, too?
    it is still like a social sin to even talk about some of the issues. But i think that if jesus came preaching a kingdom where all of that happened and then told us to follow him into it, we should be practicing the same kind of thing.”

    My point was and is that changing laws without an objective law that all can agree to has many times lead to long ugly wars. If you are talking about raising issues that aren’t on the radar of the church then I have no problem listening or possibly supporting what you say.

    Regarding putting you in a corner, I’m glad you weren’t there and I didn’t see your comments as defensive. I’m really glad you say you will not take in other’s words with out holding them to God’s word. I’m just a little skeptical on that one yet.

  100. Joey Brewer’s November 25, 2010 at 5:28 am post said, ” I used to wear my hair long, listen to heavy metal music, and hang out with people that maybe never have set foot in a church! I have cut the hair, and my music tastes now include every genre, but I still hang with those people every now and then when I come home from break.”

    What? Where did this come from Joey? I’m glad you jumped into this debate…. but why did you feel the need to talk about your hair, music and friends that don’t go to church? Do you think we are beating up on people who don’t know Jesus? If you do, then tell us where this comes from?

    Joey said, “I say all of this to lead you into this, God wants us to love each other. Doesn’t matter who they are-love them!”

    I have no issues with this Joey. Are you implying that church leaders are to be given a pass when there theology isn’t Biblical?

    Your comments about Social Media and Phone Ringing…. I agree, our world is moving faster and faster all the time. The speed and complexity of our world does not Biblically justify a prayer labyrinth. If I am wrong please prove it with scripture.

    NYC 07 story, I have no problem with that. Why do you think I or others would?

    Joey said, “Jesus accepted greedy tax collectors, the crippled, the blind and the poor. He did it even though HIS FOLLOWERS told him not to! Do you think he would if one of you “Concerned Nazarenes” or “Reformed Nazarenes” told him not to talk to a sick and homeless person living in somewhere as far away as Uganda, or as close to you as a few blocks away from you or your church? No. Jesus would show his love”

    I’m not sure you understand the issues being discussed here Joey.

  101. Rebekah:

    This will probably be my last post on this subject. It is obvious we are worlds apart on this and I doubt that we will ever agree on Labyrinth as being a vital part of ones walk with God.

    Without giving Scripture to support your position, your statement in defense for Labyrinth was, “The walk just gives you a specific thing to think on for a few seconds, it doesn’t tell you how to worship” I disagree the walk within itself is telling you how to worship and controls your spiritual conduct.

    No holiness person will ever need Labyrinth to please God. When in doubt to our calling to be holy, one of the best examples or commands to obedience, outside of Jesus is found in the life of Abraham the father of faith.

    Abraham is a testimony to this. In Genesis [17:1] God said; “When Abraham was ninety-nine years old, the Lord appeared to Abram and said to him, ‘I am Almighty God; walk before Me and be blameless.” (‘be blameless’ is sometimes translated as ‘be thou whole-hearted’)

    The phrase, “walk before Me” suggests that God was commanding Abram to walk before Him to show determination, with nothing to hide, to be obedient with the purpose to be holy before God.

    In the above passage God identifies Himself according to the Hebrew as “El shaddai” meaning “All-sufficient.” It also means, “Heap or dispense” benefits. He was not asking Abraham to do what He could not provide him with the resources to be successful.

    When God told Abram to “Walk before Me and be blameless” consisted of a duel meaning and purpose. All this conveys that God is a provider, travel companiom and guardian to those who put thier trust in him. As the Holy Spirit is today.

    At that point Abram could not have known all that God would ask of him. In Genesis [22:1-2] God asks Abraham to go to the land of Moriah and offer Isaac as a burnt offering.

    According to the Jews this was Abraham’s tenth and greatest trial. This was the supreme test to Abraham’s faith. The proof of a man’s love for God is his willingness to obey Him without reservations with all his heart, with all his soul, and all his strength which is reflected in the Shema.

    In Abraham’s case this is seen in his willingness to sacrifice Isaac and surrender unto God what is even dearer than his own life. God never intended to have Isaac sacrificed because He detested human sacrifice. It was to test Abraham’s resistance.

    You see to live the Spirit filled life I do not need Labyrinth as a crutch to walk and talk to my Lord Jesus in our daily walk. It would only get into the way of our relationship. I hope this helps.

    Lige

  102. pam,
    “If you are talking about raising issues that aren’t on the radar of the church then I have no problem listening or possibly supporting what you say.”
    And that is all i’m asking for. but not just that…after those issues are raised, something must be done. what good is it to hear something, but not do something?

    Thank you for your responses, pam. I really am grateful to be able to have open conversations such as these. its how we all learn and grow and engage in this community with one another. : )

    Lige,
    “It is obvious we are worlds apart on this and I doubt that we will ever agree on Labyrinth as being a vital part of ones walk with God.”
    i don’t think its vital. I don’t think i ever even implied that it was a vital part. I know though, that it is surrounded with controversy and un-understanding. and that is what i was seeking to throw my input into.
    You said, ” the walk within itself is telling you how to worship and controls your spiritual conduct.”
    I totally disagree! it does NOT control anyones ‘spiritual conduct’. No. if you still think that, then you still don’t understand what the prayer walk even is.

    You also said “No holiness person will ever need Labyrinth to please God. When in doubt to our calling to be holy, one of the best examples or commands to obedience, outside of Jesus is found in the life of Abraham the father of faith.”
    I went through the walk not thinking i needed to in order to please God or to make myself more holy or anything like that! I don’t understand why you would think that it is something that people do to try to be holy or to , i guess ‘fix’ their unholiness. Or to fulfill the calling to be holy instead of doubt it. I just don’t konw what you mean. i”m sorry.

    “You see to live the Spirit filled life I do not need Labyrinth as a crutch to walk and talk to my Lord Jesus in our daily walk. It would only get into the way of our relationship.”
    A crutch? really? No, in no way is this a crutch. in NO WAY is it the only way that i can speak to God. And it is NOT portrayed as that either. not at Trevecca or anywhere else i have heard about this. I think your understanding of this prayer walk is incredibly skewed. Also, it has not hindered my walk at all. it has only increased it.

    I can only hope that you will seek out what this whole thing is truly about. i would say to ask more people, people who have been through this walk, what it was about. maybe then you will realize that you are not entirely correct in your understanding of it.
    Lige, in no way am i hoping to offend you. In honesty, i have an incredible respect for you. You have been open to talking to me, and helping me to understand more on these issues. or at least hear someone else’s voice on the matter. I can respect that way more than i could someone who is unwilling to talk/listen to anything but their own voice. Thank you for that.
    i wish you well, and again, thank you. : )

  103. Rebekah,
    Hope you had a good Thanksgiving.
    Listen, I hope you don’t think we are going to continue conversing like this on this blog continuously about certain issues that have been resolved already scripturally. The prayer labyrinth is a pagan practice that violates the scriptural mandates to not bring into our practice the practices of the pagan religions. We cannot Christianize labyrinths and transcendental meditation and say its okay. So that conversation needs to end about labyrinths and contemplative prayer, such as “the silence”, or lectio divina, or the Jesus Prayer. That is unbiblical, and so your efforts to change minds here are not going to work.

    You said: “I can only hope that you will seek out what this whole thing is truly about. i would say to ask more people, people who have been through this walk, what it was about. maybe then you will realize that you are not entirely correct in your understanding of it.”

    This is a consistent way that you speak about these things which bothers me a lot. Instead of asking people what they think about this “prayer walk” (same as labyrinth) , or how they felt when they did it, you should be asking: is this scriptural or not? You seem to be focused on “the experience”, and frankly, experience can be very deceptive. We must always look to the word of God, not the experience, and how it “seemed” to enhance our spiritual life.

    The other thing is how you seem to avoid answering questions about people like McLaren. I have posted so many obvious things he has said, and you cannot say either way whether you agree with him or not. Yet you would expose him to your kids with no problem? If so, then I must conclude you agree with his heretical statements, or you are willing to ignore those statements, because he says some good things also.

    Same thing with other questions or statements like:
    1. “God knows the future.” Rebekah, do you believe that or not?
    2. “God never makes mistakes”. Rebekah, do you believe that or not?
    3. “Christ’s death on the Cross was almost like false advertising for God.” Do you agree or disagree with that statement?
    4. “The Bible is the inerrant, infallible word of God in its original documents.” Do you agree or disagree?
    5. “We need a five year moratorium on the question of homosexuality as a sin.” Then after that, we need more conversation to finally see what we will come up with.” Do you agree or disagree?

    I can never seem to get a hold of what things you believe, except in very elusive generalities, much like Brian McLaren speaks. He has a hard time answering clearly on a lot of issues. I wish you would just give straight answers on these, otherwise we keep wondering where you are really coming from.

    If you can’t give clear answers to these questions that are biblically supported, then the conversation really can’t go much further here and I’ll just stop approving your comments, and I’m not trying to be mean. Those of us like me who support what this blog is about, are clear in our statements, are unambiguous, and we do not have to have long conversations for years and years before we conclude what the scriptures say about certain things. The main purpose of this blog is to educate, warn, and look at everything biblically. I’m not interested in what Dan Boone or anyone else has to say, unless they can back it up with the word of God.

    I hope you can do the same. I again urge you to only focus on what the Bible says about these issues, and not take the words of anyone. Be a Berean, do not let emotion or experience or feelings cloud your judgment. Always test the spirits, and look to the word of God.

  104. Wow, that was a very…um… polite?
    I’ve been having some very great conversations with Pam and Lige and now Joey as well. I hate to hear that you’re interested in ending all of that. I’m assuming that if you are the one to ‘allow’ people to post, that you’ve been reading our conversation as well. I, for one, have learned quite a bit through these conversations. Don’t make that end because you don’t agree or think we’re getting anywhere.

    Your first full paragraph, I think is quite ridiculous. I don’t believe in any way that it is unbiblical. Quite your hearts, meditate on God, his Words. If that is what you’re doing in a prayer walk, tell me how it is at all unbiblical. At the prayer walk at Trevecca (which is the only one i can speak to, since its the only one I’ve been through) is all about focusing on the Creator. There is NOTHING unbiblical about that. This is what I mean when i say you can’t possibly know what I’m talking about because you have no clue what it is actually about.

    You said, Manny,”… you should be asking: is this scriptural or not? You seem to be focused on “the experience”, and frankly, experience can be very deceptive. We must always look to the word of God, not the experience, and how it “seemed” to enhance our spiritual life.”
    I know by the fruits that it bore in my life. Experience can be deceptive. I have said over and over again how we all should look at the fruit that is brought about by our words/practices. So. That is how I know it was a good thing and of God. I know that I was only drawn nearer to him through the prayer walk. Good fruit!

    You also said, “The other thing is how you seem to avoid answering questions about people like McLaren. I have posted so many obvious things he has said, and you cannot say either way whether you agree with him or not.”
    No. I said that I am not willing to discuss that, because it is not what I originally came here asking. I also remember saying to you that I don’t agree with all of his teachings. And as for exposing my kids to him, I think you should read that conversation again. I said that I would have raised them to not ever take anything as truth without holding it up to the Word of God. don’t leave that part out, Manny, or it looks like you are not fully portraying what I said. Which is the same as twisting my words around and out of context……

    Manny, I’m not going to sit here and go into conversation with you about any of those 4 questions. It’s not going to happen. We disagree. I don’t say yes to all, I don’t say no to all. Like i said. I only came to your site to see what everyone was talking about and hear the truth for myself. Not to sit here and talk about who is right or who is wrong or who said what and if I agree or not. I did not want this to turn around to my beliefs or if i agree with Mclaren or you because that is not my intention on this blog. I’ve stated that over and over. and quite frankly, it seems that you are the one not hearing me. Not the other way around.

    In your paragraph just under this one, do I have to address that? Once again, I have answered you on why I’m so ‘elusive’ many times. It’s getting tiring. But I will choose to assume that you honestly aren’t understanding what I’m saying. So, I’ll try again.
    You said, “ I wish you would just give straight answers on these, otherwise we keep wondering where you are really coming from”
    Manny, you do know where I come from in regards to the ORIGINAL questions I posed to you. It was on those original questions that I came here to ask you about. Not for you to try and pick apart where I stand on things. I would hate for you to label me an ‘emergent’ or a ‘reformed’. Especially since I know hardly anything about it! I am not willing to answer your questions because they are totally irrelevant to what I am seeking. That’s it.
    I am not answering because it is totally irrelevant to what I am seeking to know from this site, from you, from whatever knowledge you hold about what the argument between one group and the other is. All I want is the facts, not to get into a debate or argument with you.

    “ The main purpose of this blog is to educate, warn, and look at everything biblically. I’m not interested in what Dan Boone or anyone else has to say, unless they can back it up with the word of God.”
    If that is the purpose of this blog, why would you deny me to be able to post when I am only asking questions in order to find out about this argument between ‘reformed’ and whoever. I didn’t come here throwing out quotes from anyone. Not dan boone or mclaren or bell or anyone else.

    “If you can’t give clear answers to these questions that are biblically supported, then the conversation really can’t go much further here and I’ll just stop approving your comments, and I’m not trying to be mean. Those of us like me who support what this blog is about, are clear in our statements, are unambiguous, and we do not have to have long conversations for years and years before we conclude what the scriptures say about certain things.”
    Wow. This conversation has gone SO far. Please read back on what has been posted recently. That is a conversation. Have we all begun to agree with each other? Nope. Will we? Maybe. I don’t know. Have we all learned a little bit of something from the others? I definitely know that I have! As for pam or lige or joey, you should ask them that I guess. I’m not going to speak for them. I know you aren’t ‘trying to be mean’ or anything. But I’m not either when I say that it would be kinda dumb if you halted a conversation because you don’t feel its going anywhere.
    Its fine if you don’t think it is, but I do think it is. I’ve learned, and am thinking about what all was said. I still have a million questions! But if you don’t want to allow that, its your choice.
    I don’t feel like I have to have years and years worth of conversation either. But I do know beyond a shadow of a doubt that conversations are GOOD and God intended us to ask each other questions and have conversations and talk and commune in that way with each other. All I’m asking is that as I hear you out, you also in turn hear me out. You take my questions as seriously as I take yours and then we TALK. That has been happening so far.

    Manny, I will apologize to you. If I have offended you, I’m sorry. I have consistently tried to only ask questions that can be answered and have tried to present them in an unbiased kind of way. I ask that you answer them. This is not about what my beliefs are. I only began posting on here after I could not find any clear answer on what the real argument was all about here. That is what I was seeking to know.
    Now, if other conversations spur off of that, than its fine. But I refuse, completely refuse, to get into an argument with you. If I feel that either of us is attacking or having to be defensive, than I stop seeing it as a conversation and as an argument. There is a huge difference between the two.

    Manny, I would really hate to see you end all of this dialogue between me and pam and lige and joey and whoever else chooses to jump in.

  105. Lige, I saw a message saying that you replied to my post, but i don’t see that post here. So, i copy and pasted. : )

    “Rebekah:
    Perhaps I can explain my position better this way. I was saved on April 29, 1962, and was Sanctified on July 3, 1962. Over Forty and Eight years I have known the Lord and He has done me no wrong. So why would I take up a pagan practice at this stage in my life when God has proven Himself to me over and over in my life without it?
    Lige”

    I’m not saying in any way that everyone should start going through a prayer walk. in no way is that a necessary thing for a closer walk with God. I don’t feel like i needed it. Was it a good thing? yeah, it was. was it a bad? not in any way.
    As for saying it is pagan…can you help me understand that? I mean, i know the word, and i know the origins of ‘labyrinth’. but i don’t know why this is considered something pagan.
    i heard someone say once that God could be in anything that he chooses to be in. Now, i’m not beginning to say that the tree over there is God or the chair i’m on is god or anything like that. but can’t God choose how he reveals himself to us? so if i go out on a beautiful day, i can see him in the wind or trees or lake or grass? or if i walk through a prayer walk, can’t he still speak to me there?
    I think absolutely yes. : )
    i think it is only a pagan thing if the god’s youre worshiping are pagan. but if the focus is fully on our Lord, is it still pagan?
    I’m really confused on this, Lige. I really hope you can kind of help me clear it up.
    Thanks!

  106. Rebekah,
    Yes, I was polite to you- albeit a bit blunt and direct as I tend to be.

    Okay, let me clarify one more time for you about what this site is and IS NOT about. And no- I am not mad at you, I am not upset, you have not offended me at all! You seem to be a sincere and nice person who I could easily have a conversation with over a cup of coffee.

    My About page says the following:

    1. This blog is not for lengthy debates. It is primarily for two purposes: warning and equipping Bible believing Christians with information about the false teachings invading our churches,particularly through the emergent church movement, and to serve as a resource for advice or encouragement to those who have experienced harm as a result of false teachers’s attacks, or having to leave a church due to unbiblical teachings. If you are constantly disagreeing with everything here, just read and move on to somewhere else where you can debate, or better yet, prayerfully consider the information. Those who I clearly know support unbiblical teachings, especially arising from emergent church ideology, will not be welcome to comment and spread any more emergent church or other false teaching here. It’s nothing personal, this is just not the place anymore for that kind of nonsense.

    Now, at this point, I don’t believe you are spreading any emergent nonsense here deliberately, although I believe you have bought into some of it, with your acceptance of prayer labyrinths, and apparent approval of McLaren and other’s teachings as seeming to be okay.

    So, let me be clear- and it really is bluntness rather than rudeness- but I’m not going to let you continue on here with a long conversation when we have made our points very clear here. This is not a free for all lengthy debate site. Read the above, and if you cannot accept that, it’s fine. You can start your own blog, and set your own rules there.

    You said: “I still have a million questions!” Fine, then read the dozens of posts here, and you will get the answers to your questions! I have referred you to them. Have you really read them? If you have, then either disagree and move on, but don’t think that you can continue to argue against what we are saying here. The matter here is concluded on McLaren, false practices like the labyrinth, and many more.

    You said: “I have consistently tried to only ask questions that can be answered and have tried to present them in an unbiased kind of way. I ask that you answer them.” Do you think I’m going to answer your questions again when they have been answered in so many of my posts? I don’t have time to do that, Rebekah. Read what I have already written!

    My beliefs are an open book to you here. If you can’t answer those questions, then I don’t understand what you believe. Go back to them and see if you can tell me, otherwise, no problem. We’ll move on. This is my blog, and I set the rules.

    If you can’t even acknowledge whether you believe that God knows the future or not; or that God makes mistakes or not, that is a serious problem. That is not a request to argue. That is a request to know where you stand on something. That’s all.

    You said: “Manny, I would really hate to see you end all of this dialogue between me and pam and lige and joey and whoever else chooses to jump in.”

    I can certainly see if any of those folks would like to have an email conversation with you and answer questions. But this will not be the forum for that.

    I hope you will answer the questions so I can see where you stand on those issues. It’s the least you can do for me, since you know exactly where I stand. Whether you choose to answer or not, I will pray for you that you will see the truth from God’s word, not someone else’s word.

    Manny

  107. Rebecca you stated “i know the word, and i know the origins of ‘labyrinth’”
    If that was true you would know that the origins of the labyrinth are pagan and the scripture forbids against Christians following pagan practices.
    But hey you go to Trevecca right so I see the disconnect.
    Your own university president stated
    “In an interesting way, we are doing what the Old Testament saints did in moving into Canaan – taking their Canaanite forms and terms and using them in a God-honoring way.” end quote
    So if the top of the food chain there believes that its not a stretch that you are a very confused young lady.

    Here is what Gods word stated on pagan practice.

    Deut 18:9-12

    9 “When you come into the land which the LORD your God is giving you, you shall not learn to follow the abominations of those nations. 10 There shall not be found among you anyone who makes his son or his daughter pass through the fire, or one who practices witchcraft, or a soothsayer, or one who interprets omens, or a sorcerer, 11or one who conjures spells, or a medium, or a spiritist, or one who calls up the dead.12 For all who do these things are an abomination to the LORD, and because of these abominations the LORD your God drives them out from before you. 13 You shall be blameless before the LORD your God. 14 For these nations which you will dispossess listened to soothsayers and diviners; but as for you, the LORD your God has not appointed such for you.”

    But your fearless leader goes on to say:
    “The Hebrew creation account is a re-telling of the Babylonian tale. Their Hebrew feast days are re-interpretations of the Canaanite days. The Royal Psalms in the collection of Psalms were once Canaanite songs.” End of quote.

    My comments to that were…
    The man is basically saying the Bible was influenced by pagans not the Holy Spirit. That statement in itself is blasphemous.

    Well, let’s just see what God’s Word has to say about this:

    “All Scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness”. (2Tim 3:16)

    To Manny’s point-
    All the answers are already on our websites (I just copied and pasted this stuff from our website from a article I wrote) if indeed you want answers to your questions.
    In my opinion you are just here to defend your school which in itself may be considered admirable but very misguided because your leadership is misleading you.
    You stated “I’m really confused on this, Lige. I really hope you can kind of help me clear it up.”
    Beckie I don’t think your confused at all I think you know exactly what you are doing so I can see why Manny will probably shut you down.
    Your points have been made.
    If you don’t like what we teach here.
    Great.
    Sorry about my bluntness as well.
    Your’re really not fooling the adults here so perhaps it is time to move on.
    If you sincerely are seeking the truth check the scriptures first and then read our articles.
    If they don’t jive with scripture reject them.
    It’s really that simple.
    Regards
    Tim

  108. One more thought on something you said here, Rebekah: “i heard someone say once that God could be in anything that he chooses to be in.”

    I’ve heard many people say a lot of things. This strangely reminds me of Dr. Jay McDaniel who spoke at Northwest Nazarene in 2008. And what is so biblically sound about this statement that “someone” said? We must test everything through scripture, and that statement you quoted does not pass the scriptural smell test. Sounds nice, but does not pass the test of scripture. Sounds more like panentheism, which Dr. McDaniel teaches and has taught to our own students.

  109. Rebekah & Joey,

    I want you both to know how much I’ve prayed about the things I write about and how passionately I feel about them. If I was 5 minutes from your school I don’t think I could come on campus and have these discussions it just hurts too much to see and hear these things.

    I want both of you to grow up to be adults who put their whole life in Jesus’ hands and love the Word of God. I have no desire to hurt you, your friends or families.

    Joey, you know how passionately you defend your Mother, home church, unchurched friends and school? That is how I feel about Jesus and his word. I can’t stand by as a silent observer.

    Rebecca, I really do feel that entire sanctification is how we can bring about Social Justice to our world. I really like talking to you but Manny is right. I can’t figure out where you are coming from. You said it doesn’t matter. It does.

    Rebecca, I thought of you when I read these words this morning. This is coming from a man who accepted Jesus and lives with a target on his back as he desperately tries to reason with his people. He isn’t ambivalent about anything.

    http://sonofhamas.wordpress.com/2010/10/22/what-do-we-want/

    I strongly believe that true freedom and social justice happens when we submit our lives wholly to Christ and his word.

    Hebrews 4:12
    For the word of God is alive and active. Sharper than any double-edged sword, it penetrates even to dividing soul and spirit, joints and marrow; it judges the thoughts and attitudes of the heart.

    Revelation 19:13
    He is dressed in a robe dipped in blood, and his name is the Word of God.

    You see, you can’t separate the love of God’s word from the love you have for Jesus. It just doesn’t work.

  110. Manny,
    I realize that you don’t want this site to turn into a debate thing. But really why did you even start this? To let people know what was going on, right? All I am doing is asking what is going on. As many posts as I could read on this site, it is much much easier to simply ask on one of the posts most prevalent to me (such as this one) and try to find the truth from you. We, as well as all of the others here, have contributed to this conversation and I have come to understand way way more than I could have from simply reading a million of posts.
    I have read your about page. In your first point, you say that the site is about mainly 2 things. Giving knowledge, and giving advice. I am asking you for both of those things. I am not at all interested in a debate. I said that from the beginning.
    I promise that I am not trying to spread any ‘emergent nonsense’ here. I’m not even exactly sure what that term means still. Haha
    I do agree with some of the things that you disagree with. And that is ok. We have both remained respectful, and really that means a lot. I am not going to refrain from telling you or anyone else who has asked why I believe the way I do about prayer walks. That is just really silly. And I would hope that you would be just as open as pam and lige and joey have been about hearing my side of it and at least trying to understand where I am coming from. I’m not here to try to convince you of anything, just to present my side of this story.
    Manny, again, I will say that I am not looking for a debate here. That is no where close to why I came to your site. I came here against a lot of advice from others, because I want to know your side. I really hope you can be open to continuing to hear my side.
    I have read the posts you have sent me. And like I said, they haven’t answered my questions. I will continue to ask them and continue to dialogue with others over them. Where is the wrong in that, many? No one here has started a debate, and no one here is arguing. So I am just having trouble seeing what the problem is in talking about things…..
    Manny, if you don’t want to answer my questions then that is ok. But at least continue to let others like pam and lige.
    I do, however, understand that this is your blog and you set the rules. That’s fine. I’m asking though that you don’t shut down the one means of communication I have with these people who are still talking to me.
    You suggested an email conversation with them…why not leave it up on here? That way more people can come and read your post and then the responses to it. It only provides more information for people coming in to understand.
    Manny, again, I’m saying that I did not come here to ask your beliefs or to tell mine. I came here to ask what the situation was about. If there is a question though, that you just can’t deal with not knowing, ask me again. I’m not going to go back and address every single one of them, especially when they aren’t relevant now, unless you just absolutely have to know.

    Tim, I understand where ‘labyrinth’ comes from. I don’t see though, why if it is soley God centered, why I can’t partake in it. Can you help me understand that please?
    Also, low blow….seriously. “But hey you go to Trevecca right so I see the disconnect.”
    There is no reason to assume that just because I go to Trevecca, I buy into everything that you think they say. That’s ridiculous.
    I like that you are pulling quotes from Dr. Boone though, and holding them up to scripture. For the past long few posts we have all been emphasizing how necessary it is to do exactly that. Thank you.
    I don’t know very much about Hebrew history or Jewish traditions or pagan practices. I wish that I could say I was more knowledgeable on such things! But I will try my best to talk about that which I do know.
    You said that that statement in itself is blasphemous….i don’t see that. I think Dr. Boone is correct in saying that a lot of the stuff we read in the scriptures was taken from Cannanite things. Like the music, but putting God into it and turning it to worship for Him alone.
    This made me think of Humanity. I mean, we are kinda pagan. We are sinful and ugly and overall nasty things. But Christ turns us into something worshipful to God when we accept him. Can’t Christ be turning other ‘pagan’ things to worship Him too? Just an idea floating in my head….your thoughts on this are more than welcome. I could really use some insight.
    I don’t think at all that Dr. Boone was suggesting that the Holy Spirit was not the one to influence the scriptures. Not at all.. I believe that and in all of the conversations I have had with him, he does too. I think you may be looking at his quotes wrong. He is saying, at least it sounds like to me, that there were practices that were once pagan, but then were used for the glory of God.

    Tim, I have not come here with any intention of ‘defending my school’. I came here to find out what this discussion was all about. The end.
    I hate that you feel like I am here to do something that I am not doing. Sorry that you got that message from me. Because it quite simply is not true. At all. In any way.

    I am confused. I came here for answers. I am getting those answers through my posts back and forth with lige and pam.
    And really, tim. What’s with the low blows? I’m not here attacking you, so why do I feel so attacked?
    I hope that you can come to see why I really came to this site, tim

    And I really hope you can start looking at me as a person with legitimate questions and thoughts of my own.

    Manny,
    I have not heard of Jay McDaniel. I don’t think it was him who I heard say that. Maybe someone quoting him or something. I don’t know.
    Anyway.
    It wasn’t like panentheism at all. It was more like, If God chooses he may let himself be seen in anything. Like a sunset. I can look at that and see God. See his work and wonder and I am amazed. That’s not panentheism. Is it? Am I using the wrong definition or something? (I’m seriously asking, not trying to be a smartmouth)

    Pam,
    Thank you so much. I really appreciate that we’ve been able to talk, and truly you have helped me very much.
    I don’t understand where you got ‘entire sanctification’ from me as the way to Social Justice. I don’t think that…..
    Pam, if you have a question about what I believe, I would be more than happy to answer you. I did not want to come here to start talking about that, but I do see now, especially seeing where the conversation has gone, that it is necessary for me to talk about it.

    “I strongly believe that true freedom and social justice happens when we submit our lives wholly to Christ and his word.”
    YES! Yes! I believe that fully and completely and wholly.

    But right after that you say that you can’t sepate the love of God’s Word from the love for Jesus…..I’m not trying to do that at all. What did I say that made you think that? Because I don’t ever EVER want to say it again……

    Thank you. I hope that we can continue this….
    rebekah

  111. Rebekah, you managed to post a comment that is as long as a typical post that I write.
    Not sure why, but I’m allowing it so I can once again answer a few questions- once and for all for you. I will write your comments in LARGE TEXT for clarity.

    “ALL I AM DOING IS ASKING WHAT IS GOING ON.” What is going on is summed up this way: the Nazarene denomination is slowly becoming apostate in many of the universities and many churches (not all). It has allowed the emergent church movement to undermine scripture and replaced it with man’s wisdom. Now a remnant including myself are fighting to warn people of this real danger, to help remove confusion from the minds of those deceived, and to warn those spreading this poison to repent or answer to God someday with blood on their hands for deceiving or allowing many to be deceived.

    “YOU SAY THAT THE SITE IS ABOUT MAINLY 2 THINGS. GIVING KNOWLEDGE, AND GIVING ADVICE. I AM ASKING YOU FOR BOTH OF THOSE THINGS. I AM NOT AT ALL INTERESTED IN A DEBATE.”

    There is plenty of knowledge and biblically supported positions here. Please read as much as possible. There is also much advice in these posts, along with the facts. I pray that you heed that advice.

    “I DO AGREE WITH SOME OF THE THINGS THAT YOU DISAGREE WITH.” Like what? Certainly not prayer labyrinths, which you call prayer walks as Dan Boone has changed as if that is something different now. You have consistently refused to that state what you believe, when I posted some questions, just to know where you are coming from theologically.

    “I CAME HERE AGAINST A LOT OF ADVICE FROM OTHERS, BECAUSE I WANT TO KNOW YOUR SIDE. I REALLY HOPE YOU CAN BE OPEN TO CONTINUING TO HEAR MY SIDE.” You can know “my side” by reading everything here. I’ve given you “my side” plainly and clearly, with no ambiguity. But with all due respect, I am not much interested in hearing your side, if that means you are trying to convince me that “prayer walks”, aka prayer labyrinths, are good for us. I started this blog because of what I have been convinced by God’s word; I am not doing this to wait for people to help me make up my mind. God has already done that. So to continue to “hear your side” would probably be foolish on my part.

    “SO I AM JUST HAVING TROUBLE SEEING WHAT THE PROBLEM IS IN TALKING ABOUT THINGS…..” There is no problem, if you are someone troubled or persecuted as a result of emergent ideology, because this is the place to be, to get support and advice. But to have long conversations that go nowhere, it’s not the purpose here. If you disagree with what I believe here, I’m not stopping you. Perhaps you could start a blog and let everyone know where you stand on all these issues I have addressed here.

    “YOU SUGGESTED AN EMAIL CONVERSATION WITH THEM…WHY NOT LEAVE IT UP ON HERE? THAT WAY MORE PEOPLE CAN COME AND READ YOUR POST AND THEN THE RESPONSES TO IT. IT ONLY PROVIDES MORE INFORMATION FOR PEOPLE COMING IN TO UNDERSTAND.”
    I think I’ve answered that already. If you are sincerely seeking a conversation with Lige or Pam, and if they wish to pursue it, I’ll suggest again that its done privately. I would not want to let that go for a long time here, for the reasons I have stated clearly.

    “MANNY, AGAIN, I’M SAYING THAT I DID NOT COME HERE TO ASK YOUR BELIEFS OR TO TELL MINE. I CAME HERE TO ASK WHAT THE SITUATION WAS ABOUT.”
    For the life of me, I can’t understand why you still ask this, but if you read the following article that I posted in December of 2009:, you will understand what the situation is in a nutshell: http://reformednazarene.wordpress.com/nazarene-denomination-losing-its-way/
    If you still don’t understand, then I don’t know what else to tell you.

    “TIM, I UNDERSTAND WHERE ‘LABYRINTH’ COMES FROM. I DON’T SEE THOUGH, WHY IF IT IS SOLEY GOD CENTERED, WHY I CAN’T PARTAKE IN IT. CAN YOU HELP ME UNDERSTAND THAT PLEASE?”
    The biblical refutation of prayer labyrinths has been made clear here in numerous posts.
    Read Isaiah 2:6. Read the various posts here on prayer Labyrinths and other scriptural refutations of these pagan practices. They all make a clear, biblical argument against labyrinths. If you still don’t agree, then there is no further point of discussion here.

    Rebekah, You said to Tim in regards to Dr. Boone’s comment on Canaanite worship practices: “YOU SAID THAT THAT STATEMENT IN ITSELF IS BLASPHEMOUS….I DON’T SEE THAT. I THINK DR. BOONE IS CORRECT IN SAYING THAT A LOT OF THE STUFF WE READ IN THE SCRIPTURES WAS TAKEN FROM CANNANITE THINGS.”
    I hate to say this, but apparently you agree with Dr. Boone’s blasphemous statements. If you don’t see it, then you need a better understanding of scripture.

    “CAN’T CHRIST BE TURNING OTHER ‘PAGAN’ THINGS TO WORSHIP HIM TOO? JUST AN IDEA FLOATING IN MY HEAD….”
    No. There is nothing in scripture that would lead us to that conclusion. That idea needs to be deleted from your mind, unless there is any basis in scripture for it. That’s the danger of letting ideas float in your mind just because it sounds good to you.

    Rebekah, one more time I will say this. This is not a site for the purpose of long discussions. If you are sincerely seeking a conversation with one of us and want to continue it, I have suggested to do that via email. Otherwise, there is no place for that here. This site is for: 1. Information, and 2. To encourage and advise those who are fighting the fight against emergent ideology.

    I pray that God’s Holy Spirit will open your eyes to the danger that is around you, right in your own school.

  112. I would like to begin by saying that I am simply appalled at what has taken place here.
    I do not know particularly much regarding this issue as a whole, but from reading the interaction (especially between Joey, Manny, Lige, Pam, and Rebekah) I have gained some understanding. All involved seem to be very intelligent, well rounded people. But towards the end of the postings, it seems to become more hostile on one side while remaining friendly and inquisitive and innocent on the other…..
    Appalling.
    May I please also say that I left the Nazarene Church because of its leaders….leaders that had strayed very far from the truth. Yet Rebekah and Joey here seem to be saying things that are indeed truth. Are either of you affiliated with the church?

    Manny, you keep speaking out against false prophets, and indeed, it is biblical to do so.
    I believe, however, that Rebekah was right in saying that we should all look at ourselves first before casting judgement…which is also biblical.
    I believe that there are false prophets and that we must. MUST. watch for them.
    I believe that you are one of them, Manny,

    Please, do not come to think that I am condemning here, I certainly am not. However, I do think that you should look at your beliefs and actions and posts and seriously talk to God for a while.

    It seems that you have put a denomination over God and the Church….
    How dare you speak against what you do and not take the offers extended for you to understand. That, friend, is ignorance and I believe fear.

    I agreee with Rebekah.
    Let us all search the scriptures as well as spend time with Lord so that our own eyes might be opened to Him.

  113. Hello June,
    Thanks for your input, but it sounded very confusing to me, frankly.

    You are either a very young undiscerning Christian, or a long time Christian who should know better.

    To accuse me of being a false prophet without pointing out why, is wrong and unbiblical. That is the difference between you and me here. I have called out those who I believe are false prophets, and have shown scripturally why. You have not done that, because apparently you can only accuse, without substantiating anything.

    You claim you come here to NOT condemn, but just before saying that, you condemn me as a false teacher! How strange.
    And the reason for my posts here is because I put God OVER my denomination! But you don’t seem to get it. Either that, or you are being very disingenuous and you actually support all that is going on with the emergent church and other false movements. I hope I’m wrong, but your words here put a lot of doubt in my mind about your sincerity.

    I suggest you read the Bible a little more closely to find out what our responsibilities are when we encounter wolves in sheep’s clothing.

  114. Manny,
    Thank you for your response, I appreciate it.

    I believe you to be the false teacher because you yourself do not seem to be looking to the scriptures and to Christ.
    I refuse to get in a long discussion with you, frankly, because you are unwilling to listen or to see any view other than your own. Even when there is nothing at all wrong with it! You have shown that through your responses to Rebekah.

    All that I will say is that you need to search out the Truth. And I certainly pray that God will open your eyes as He has opened up my own.

  115. Umm just curious.
    What prophecy did Manny give that was false.
    Of course we know you need to give a false prophesy in order to be a false prophet.
    I could make a pretty big list from Benny Hinn and Kim Clement as well as all the Elijah list as far as giving false prophecies are concerned.
    So June what false prophecy did Manny give?
    Tim

  116. June,
    You seem to be exposing yourself as a phony person. Either that, or you do not have the maturity that a Christian needs to deal with this stuff. Sorry if that offends you, but that’s what it seems like.

    First, if you cared about me as a fellow Christian who is deceived, you would seek to point out the errors in what I am doing. But like so many others who have tried, you simply hurl accusations without backing them up. How sad for you. I will pray that God will open your eyes.

    You refuse to get into a long discussion, because there is no substance in your argument- in fact, very little at best.

    If I do not seem to be looking at the scriptures properly, please show me with specifics- if you sincerely care about me as another Christian. And you have not told me at all why you left your church- perhaps you can elaborate on the false teachings you specifically saw there. However, I’m afraid that won’t happen, because you have contradicted yourself and now there are two strikes on you.

    If you do care to respond, please understand that I will not approve any more comments from you that do not address specifics. It almost seems like you are Rebekah using another email address. Perhaps I’m wrong, but you speak the way she did- never being specific about anything. So this is probably goodbye, unless you make a serious effort to point out why I am a false teacher, or why I am promoting a false teaching.

  117. And June, one more thing. I see that you are from Tennessee. Are you a student at Trevecca? Do you know Rebekah also? Do you know Dan Boone? This might explain a lot to me.

  118. June lets back up a minute
    Again you stated
    “I believe that there are false prophets and that we must. MUST. watch for them.
    I believe that you are one of them, Manny,”
    Ok so first you state Manny is a false prophet.
    What false prophecy did Manny speak?
    Back up your statement with facts or its just slander and libel.
    Then you state
    “I believe you to be the false teacher because you yourself do not seem to be looking to the scriptures and to Christ.”
    Ok so you then state that Manny is a false teacher as well.
    Ok so what is he teaching that is false?
    Back up your statements with biblical facts or its simply slander and libel.
    Now if you don’t agree with what Manny states is false teaching with the scripture Manny proves it with thats another story.
    But you have not stated any thing but conjecture.
    And if your not sure what that big word means here is the definition.
    When used as a noun-
    the formation of conclusions from incomplete evidence; guess
    When used as a verb-to infer or arrive at (an opinion, conclusion, etc) from incomplete evidence.
    Now you came to conclusions without any facts.
    Maybe its best you leave the room and let the adults talk.

  119. I could not help but follow this thread to the end. The reason is I attend NBC. I know what is happening and frankly I am appauled at the lack of discrenment there. Do not get me wrong. NBC is a great institution with real men and women of God trying their best to teach us and prepare us for ministry.

    However, I have to ask if anyone has taken a class on Spiritual Formation? I have and in one word I can describe like this. Scary. What is being taught is what I call, an “eco-friendly form of catholisim with a dose of celtic-christianity and far eastern meditation thrown in for good measure.’ Seriously, I about dropped the class but I needed it. The professor and I disagreed quite often. Nice guy, but way off base.

    Another thing. If you cannot stand the heat, get out of the furnance. A few of you seemed so ready to attack when Manny or Tim called someone you know out on an issue. Do yourself a favor. I know I did. I took all this to God and asked him to reveal this to me. I prayed for wisdom and then did the research on my own. I have yet to find an issue that they bring up that is not defendable on the grounds of the Word of God.

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