Bruce Barnard’s FaceBook Dialogue RE: Concerned Nazarenes

The following was posted by Rev. Bruce Barnard on his Facebook page.  It is followed by over 400 comments posted, both by his friends, and several of us concerned Nazarenes.  My original reply to his post can be read here:
Replying To An Open Letter By A Pastor

(This is being preserved as an example of the tactics of emergents that are used to defend their defenseless ideology)

Open Letter To Concerned Nazarenes
by Bruce Barnard on Friday, September 7, 2012 at 10:01pm ·

An Open Letter to Members of Concerned Nazarenes:

If you are part of that “group”, you may want to stop reading now and unfriend me. It will save you some anguish. But someone needs to speak truth to you. Since you BLOCK your FB page and only allow those that support your cause to post there, and since I can’t message you, I’m forced to break my own rule and use my page to express my thoughts without first engaging you privately (though I’m sure it would be of little use).

I have followed your comments, rants, ravings, posts, and visual media since you debuted your DVD around our General Assembly in 2009. I have read what you write on blogs, posts, comments, Twitter, Facebook, NazNet, and NCNNews among other outlets. I believe I have formed an accurate and honest perspective on your cause.

You aren’t Concerned, you’re angry. You aren’t Nazarene, you’re judgmental.

In short – some of you are THUGS.

I watched today as you “whole-earth scorched” some friends of mine and fellow Nazarene pastors, Gabriel & Jeanette Vargas Salguero, on the NCNNews Message Board. You have attacked good and Godly women and men in the Church of the Nazarene, such as Dan Boone, Thomas Jay Oord, Doug Hardy, Mark Maddix, Kevin Ulmet, Loren Gresham, Jon Middendorf, Jesse C Middendorf, Karl Giberson, Dan Bohi, Diane Cunningham Leclerc, among others. In doing so, you don’t enter into constructive dialogue, you choose personal and vile attacks. It’s un-Godly behavior; it’s un-Biblical; and it’s time someone stood up and told you so. That’s where I come in.

Feel free to google me (you won’t find much), listen to my conversations (all on-line and in iTunes), read my FB page (it’s public), follow me on Twitter (again, public), and in general add me to your list of those that deserve your bitter hyperbole. I’ll gladly take it if it means I’m in the likes of those YOU currently call “enemies of the church”. These General & District Superintendents, faculty and college presidents, chaplains and officers in our military, student leaders on our Nazarene campuses, and pastors and parsonage families, have done nothing TO YOU, yet you feel the need to RISE up against them. Shame on you. Shame on your cause.

If you’ve read this far, I’m sure you want to UNFRIEND me. No problem. In fact, if you are friends with me AND part of the FB Concerned Nazarene group, I’ll likely UNFRIEND you. It’s not that I don’t value my FB friends who have differing opinions than me, or that I don’t learn from them (just read my recent political posts) – but they truly are interested in TRUTH. You are interested in getting your own way. I don’t need you in my life.

I’ll pray for you. I’ll fast for you. I’ll care what you do with your life, and how God will respond to you on judgment day (though if I were you I wouldn’t hold out hope for mercy). But I won’t waste time trying to understand you. We are at opposite ends of the humanity spectrum.

I wish you the best in life…HONESTLY, I do!

Grace & Peace — Bruce Barnard, a HOPEFUL NAZARENE!

PS – this is a NOTE, not a post…it’s sharable if you so choose…

  • Jim Smith If you ever want to post this and allow others to add their signatures, please allow me to add mine.
  • Art Roxby Clearly and lovingly said.
  • Jerry Bohall Agreed… Bruce you said it well! Thanks for ‘standing up” and being counted.
  • David Wesley Thank you Bruce. None of us should put up with our brothers in Christ being beaten up by a group of thugs.
  • Bryan Todd Is this the start of the group, Concerned about Concerened Nazarenes
  • Cindy Smith Mastbrook Plugge And sometimes, we just have to agree to disagree. Judgemental people I can do without and I’ve experienced plenty in my “Nazarene” years. Can’t say that I’m missing any of those friendships.
  • Erin Stillion Preach it! Well said Bruce. I’ve got goose bumps.
  • Marian Schwaller Carney The alarm clock on my cell phone reminds me everyday at 5:10pm to pray for this group and its leader, and for unity in the COTN. I will keep doing so because this is one thing that grieves my heart deeply, the division, hurt, and distraction from kingdom building that is caused by this group.
  • Philip Heap Well said Bruce, thanks for standing up
  • David Pettigrew The only response to bullies is to stand up to them. They won’t go away on their own. They have absolutely no courage or shame.
  • Jim Hullinger Thanks, Bruce, for this very pertinent post. Well stated!
  • Andrew Henck you can add “Student Body Presidents” to their “concerned” list. I take special pride in being called out by name on their blog back in 2009 for offering Brennan Manning & Henri Nouwen as authors for Point Loma students to read. Thank you, Mr. Silva!
  • J.T. Carnell I agree 100% with you Bruce. I have had conversations with a couple of these individuals and their arguments are meaningless and unproductive. Thank You for Your Post and Standing up for some great people!
  • Millie Zarco Thank you. I agree.
  • Gary Lee Parker Thank you, Bruce. You have encouraged me especially after be shot at from a person about Jim Wallis this week’s weekly article. What you have said, I feel like I have been on the side being chastised by the “Concerned Nazarenes” to the point of keeping me from fulfilling God’s call on my life to be an ordained elder as a Pastor. I like the idea better to have a group called “Respectful Nazarene” or in my case “Respectful Methodist-Nazarene” since I am a member of a Methodist Church now. Maybe Michael J. Christiansen’s ministry to develop “Communites of Shalom” is more real than being antagonistic. By the way, the 20th Anniversary of Shalom is celebrating with a Shalom Summit in LACA the first week of October 2012. My son and I are going for 2 days thanking God, CAL-PAC Annual Conference, and Mike. Keep up the great words, Bruce, and thank you for your encouragement in your words as well as Pastor Gabriel’s prayer at the DNC. I loved his prayer and I thank God for him praying that at the
  • John Brickley Thank you for what you wrote and standing up to what Dan Boone described as Nazarene Taliban. I have personally witnessed the pain that this group brings when they set their sites on a church. One of their main leaders actively participated in tearing apart a church on our district, and caused great pain to a dynamic young pastoral couple. Their actions are shameful and they bring shame to the cause of Christ. Even if one agrees with one of their concerns all of us should rise up against their actions.
  • Karl Giberson Thanks for this Bruce. Groups like the Concerned Nazarenes reflect the absolute worst of evangelicalism–people who believe that God speaks to them in ways he doesn’t speak to the larger church. Their righteous rants are nothing but thoroughly carnal and self-centered acts of hate. In another era they were the people who physically persecuted people for their beliefs.
  • Jonathan A Mills Well done, Bruce. Thanks for posting this!
  • Shelley Reese Cornish Thank you Bruce. I am saddened by the closed-minded absolutism I have witnessed in the church. Civil discourse is a rare, yet beautiful, attribute in a society and especially in a church. I enjoy the opportunity to live with and learn from people, including my Christian brothers and sisters, who have differing opinions. Iron should sharpen iron, not slay it.
  • Ron Pankey Bruce, thanks for your honest and open comments regarding an ungodly unholy attack many have faced these past years. I join with other comments here saying if you desire to make this a broad based letter or petition I would be happy to sign it.
  • Manny Silva I will respond on Monday publicly. Thank you.
  • Alan Chusuei Thanks Bruce for being a voice of reason and truth telling, for the purpose of Kingdom building! Shalom!
  • John Henderson I see that you deleted my response. I thought you had invited dialog. Sorry about the misunderstanding.
  • John Henderson You are welcome to visit my Facebook page anytime and you will not be deleted. That goes for anyone here.
  • Hans Deventer John, on this side of eternity, nobody is listening so dialogue ain’t no use. On the other side, the Lord will simply tell it like it is, that’s also the end of the discussion, presuming that everybody up in heaven will accept His word as the final one.
  • James Cox well said Bruce!
  • David W. Edwards Very good, Bruce. And I like the sign-off “Hopeful Nazarenes”, because I think that’s what we’re really about. I think that’s what the message of holiness is about. It’s not legalism, but grace.
  • John Henderson Hans, forgive this thug for not understanding. If no one is listening why is anyone talking? I know that God has the final word and that is why His written Word is so vital for us this side of eternity. That is why it means so much in understanding truth from error until “we understand it better bye and bye.”
  • Sue Hersey Bruce, thank you for standing up for these that have been so harshly judged. Do they really love the same God that I love? HIS love does not approve of this kind of judgement.
  • Bruce Barnard John (Henderson) – my apologies for the thug comment…reading it back, I feel an apology is in order…I stooped to the level of some of those attacking the individuals I mentioned…I don’t know you, and to generalize ALL CN’s as thugs is/was inappropriate…I’ve edited the comment in the original…
  • David Sharpes My son graduated from TNU, with an in-house religion department award: “Most Likely to Concern the Concerned Nazarenes” – I couldn’t have been more proud.
  • Christine Newman Jones I’ve never heard of Concerned Nazarenes. I try to be more outwardly focused. But, now you’ve made me curious. Maybe I’ve found a new group to engage in some friendly policy debate. :)
  • David Showalter As one raised in the Nazarene church, but who jettisoned it to become an unapologetic Calvinist, I am vaguely aware of all this Nazarene internal fighting. All great leaders of the church had their counterparts, so debate is not a bad thing. The main thing to remember us that “there’s a greater right than being right”, so just be kind with all this battling stuff.
  • Manny Silva Am i supposed to feel so much better, Bruce, that now I am simply a BULLY instead of a THUG?
  • Bruce Barnard As someone pointed out, THUG implied some criminal activity… but I do firmly believe some of the language borders on bullying…my opinion…
  • Manny Silva Thank you for explaining the change.
  • Manny Silva Christine, it’s not so much a policy debate, as it is a scriptural truth debate. However, I will respect Bruce’s wish and will not enter into debate within this post. I would be glad to let you know where we are all coming from in the CN group.
  • Sue Hersey Yes, Manny Silva. I’ve been a public school teacher for nearly 30 years and as you may know, bullying is a huge problem in schools today. So I would suggest you look up the definition of bullying and you should agree that Bruce is correct in this description. Although it may be hard to admit.
  • Dan Quagliata Very very well said Bruce. It saddens me that even within the body of Jesus Christ there will always be those who do things in the name of Jesus that Jesus Himself would never ever do.
  • Manny Silva Sue Hersey, thank you, but I asked my wife for her opinion- (she’s a public school teacher also) and she in no way believes I am a bully at all in what I am doing. In fact, she supports me in my efforts to expose false teachings in the church- as should any other Bible believing Christian. Instead of accepting what was said here, you ought to examine the substance of what I have been saying for four years. If you knew our story as to how I got to this place, you would know who the real bullies are. As for specific proof that we are bullies, we are still waiting on that.
    (By the way, I went to ENC in the early 70’s when a Hersey was there also).
  • Bob HunterFrom my post on NN: The Concerned Nazarenes are trying to Jesus juke the entire denomination. What is Jesus juking? The Urban Dictionary defines it this way: When some Christian brings Jesus or the Bible into an argument or conversation from out of no where. Usually creating another religious argument within the original argument or conversation.The Concerned Nazarenes have endless demands and arguments. They are not interested in reform at all, they just want to argue over issues that have already been resolved and historically established in our tradition (e.g. The Bible and innerrancy). This is is why I call it denominational Jesus juking. They are trying to juke us into to focusing on something other than our mission which is to make Christ-like disciples.

    As members of the Church of the Nazarene we should stand together against Jesus Juking. We should not allow our beloved denomination to be juked into adopting reformed positions that have no historical precedent. We should not acquiesce to the demands of irresponsible bloggers that attack our leaders and call for denominational boycotts. Rogue groups (full of Jesus Juke-iness) that are intent on revising our history, mission and theology will be met with a firm, but loving response.

    As ONE family of worldwide Nazarenes, we should stand steadfastly against denominational Jesus Juking. We are FOR making Christ-like disciples. We support the elected leaders in the Church of the Nazarene and we love our Universities.

    If the Concerned Nazarenes can’t go along with that, then show them the door.

  • Matt Salisbury Hey, David- I thought there was no use in being a Calvinist since all the seats have already been taken up?? Oops! My bad wrong page for that debate ;)
  • Chad Johnson I’m surprised that there are still Concerned Nazarenes. I thought that was a big deal, like, 2 years ago.
  • Manny Silva Chad, whether the CNs go down to just a few, or continues growing, is not the issue. Our purpose has always been to be faithful to the word of God as we expose false teachings. If we are to be a small or large group, we don’t care. Obedience to God is the only thing we should be concerned about, not popularity or how much of a “big deal” we are.
  • Tim Wirth Jesus Juke Bob your killing me. Where is that thank you for the funny post button? I think as well the DVD made a bigger impression than people would like to acknowledge. Or why even talk about the group if we have not made a sizable impact on the denomination? But the impact we make will only be what God allows as we seek to warn the denomination about false teaching. Its for sure not about us.
  • Bob Hunter Thankfully, there has been a chorus of voices from all levels in Nazarenedom denouncing the tactics and ideas of the CNs. As Bruce has so eloquently stated, Nazarenes should stand together in calling out bullies and Jesus jukers like yourself. It’s an attempt to get us to take our eye off the ball and focus on issues that are really non-issues. Once again, our mission is to make Christ-like disciples and many of us our doing that. Yes, the Concerned Nazarene have had an impact, and sadly it has all been negative and judgmental I don’t see one good thing that has come from it.
  • Richard Mark I’m sorry that facebook have become a political format. I enjoy the family photos and other comments about personal trips, etc. Too bad Bruce that you have to rant on your personal feelings with those whom you disagree.
  • Tim Wirth Its weird how some would say negative and judgmental. When it has actually been positive and discerning. Its clear though there are two different camps at work here. Bullies? Hardly we just put out the information and then ask others to search the scriptures to see of what we are saying is true. If it doesnt match up with scripture reject it. Some have. Some have not. It amazes me though when you even start with the premise that all scripture is not truth where do you even start? It makes everything relative and up for grabs. Jesus jukers? In an attempt to sound hip some people just end up sounding foolish. I would appeal again to you Bob to put your video’s up again on U Tube.
  • Tim Wirth Amazing as well Bob that you would use our Lords name next to such a carnal and crass term. Its crazy that you feel comfortable with that. Like Jesus’s name should just be used along some earthly carnal term. This is using our Lords name in vain. A very basic understanding of scripture and respect for Jesus would have stopped you from using this term. Shame on you
  • Paula Shannon Basnett Thank you for standing up!!! There are many local churches that are caught up in this same battle. The sad thing is that they are completely unaware of any stirring in the denomination. Please pray for us!!
  • Bob HunterIf Jesus juking isn’t suitable, then how about suckerpunching? What is a suckerpunch? It’s when someone punches you in the gut from out of nowhere and you didn’t even know you were fighting.The Concerned Nazarenes are suckerpunching the denomination with irresponsible claims and rogue accusations aimed at flooring members and rendering them useless to their mission. Suckerpunching is a cowardly act coming from a bully.

    The good new is that anti-bullying measures are well underway and may include but not be limited to the following: Calmly identifying bullies and promoting awareness-thanks Bruce! Resist and ignore opportunities to fight back. Promote efforts to include and not exclude. Offer support for those victimized by bullying. Sound familiar? It’s a lot of the same stuff you had to do on the school playground as a child to fend off bullies.

  • David Showalter @Matt – I’m sure your comment was supposed to be funny, but me thinks you don’t understand Calvinism…or I just don’t understand your humor.
  • Tim Wirth Bob again you misunderstand and misrepresent the CN group. We didnt make people ask for dvd’s and more information. We just put the information out there and people can either accept it or reject it. If you want to create awareness turn people toward scripture not rhetoric. Let the Holy Spirit guide them through Gods Word and then let the chips fall where they may. Thats all we are trying to do.
  • John ShinglerI am not Nazarene. I have gone through membership classes and almost did but I am glad I haven’t joined as things are right now.It appears that there are two distinct camps of thought. Both sides also seem to have decent numbers of people thinking differently.

    I have a question though. What do you do with leadership that’s playing/schmoozing both of you for head count?

    I heard Dan Bohi speak at the church I was going to. He pretty much hit all the nails on the head at our place. But there were ministries at the church that were, shall I say, sympathetic to Dan that have been completely shut down.

    So how does this work in the Nazarene denomination? You preach two thirds of thr Trinity till the cash flow gets low, invite a guy like Dan that brings all three Partners in and people get hope that things don’t really suck as much now as before…then you go back to a compromised God that isn’t in the Bible?

  • John Shingler The Trinity…not thr Trinity. Fat fingers.
  • Manny Silva All I can say is, John, is that head count for its own sake should have nothing to do with church. We are to faithfully preach and teach the Gospel. Church is designed by the Lord for the believers- not for the unsaved as some like to make popular now. The unbelievers are welcome to come to church and hear the Gospel. But the Scriptures clearly dispel the myth that the church is primarily for the unsaved- which some pastors have told me. That is not true.
    Hope that answered your question. The measure of a good church, or at least one of them, is this: is the pastor faithfully preaching the word of God? Is the church a biblical church? Does the church follow biblical principles of church discipline, which seems to be fading away fast in the COTN? These are the measures of a good church- whether there are 10 people every week, or 1000 people.
    Sadly, I believe it has become a head count/money game in the denomination, along with the false teaching, and that will not further the Kingdom of God. Only the true preaching of the Gospel will do that, and there needs to be repentance from the leadership before we can see signs of things getting better.
  • Marie Martin Bruce I have not heard of any of this, however I applaud you for standing up for truth and speaking it.
  • Tim Wirth I do not find that the Nazarene denomination preaches two thirds of the Trinity. Thats really just not true. What Dan is preaching is something different. He would lead you to think the Nazarenes dont preach and teach the Holy Spirit. Thats just not true. What Dan is promoting is something the denomination rejected when Azuza street broke out. And rightly so this strange fire was rejected than and should be rejected now. Check what Phineas F. Bresee had to say about Azuza street
  • Paula Shannon Basnett As far as any research I’ve done on Mr. Bresee, the only difference he had with Azusa Street were these two things: “The two principal things which are emphasized, and wherein they claim to differ from others, is, that Christians are sanctified before they receive the baptism with the Holy Ghost, this baptism being a gift of power upon the sanctified life, and that the essential and necessary evidence of the baptism is the gift of speaking with new tongues.” — P.F. Bresee”
    http://www.sendrevival.com/history/azusa_street/news_clipping/nazarene_opinion.htm
  • John ShinglerI will have to look into his position. I am familiar with the Pentacostal position on the event.I guess I would be cautious dismissing different ministries without a prove out. If false claims to healings are happening, if prophesies are being made that come to be..then I would say there is cause to investigate thoroughly. But…I would like to know if the Nazarene denomination believes that the gifts and manifestations of the Holy Spirit were only specific to the time of scripture being recorded or if the Nazarine denomination believes they are active today. What is the biblical proof either way?

  • Paula Shannon Basnett And as far as I can tell, the Holy Spirit has much more activity in our lives that speaking in tongues…He is The Comforter, The Teacher, The Spirit that leads into truth, the Paraklete etc. And sadly, the machine of religion seems to be overtaking the COTN (at least in our district) Ingrown, ineffective, money-making, and numbers oriented.
  • John ShinglerBresee doesn’t seem to dismiss speaking in tongues. It looks like his point of disagreement is the sequence of events and the mandate that the tongues manifestation is the only proof of the Holy Spirit baptism.I’d agree with him. Jesus put the Holy Spirit on the disciples before he ascended. I think the words were “receive the Holy Spirit” and He breathed on them (I could be wrong on the words). I believe they received the Holy Spirit at that point and tongues came later.

    But I want to know the official Nazarene denomination’s position on ALL THE GIFTS. What is it?

  • John Shingler Does this quiet mean that there is no official position? Something in writing that is current?
  • Tom Phillips Karl… We’re still friends. :)
  • Richard Mark As I see it speaking in tongues is primarily a missionary gift and was used to propel God’s good news to the many nations who were there on the day of Penticost. Dr Ralph Earle did say in class once that even though he taught greek for some 45 years he was asked to preach in a greek-speaking church in Israel once and the Holy Spirit came on him in such power that he preached the entire sermon in perfect greek without an interpreter. I thought that was amazing.
  • Carlos Kloster I´ve been introduced into the CN group by a friend of mine, I accepted and like to read about different points of view about controversial things that happens in the church of course always going to WHAT THE BIBLE SAYS AS THE FINAL AUTHORITY, as the Church of the Nazarene teaches; As I understand the Church of the Nazarene is called to be ONE , not divided, group of saved and sanctified ones, preaching the doctrine of entire sanctification as only few denominations do. As we discuss, many places in our churches are empty. I can read about Peter´s an Paul´s ministeries, each had different thoughts about Christians should be jews or not, but they not waisted the time discussing but kept preaching for the same Jesus. Sometimes this can be functional to the Enemy´s interests. I dont´t want to see our church broken into many pieces like baptists, lutherans, etc.
  • John ShinglerCarlos the Naz church already is from what I see. I still want to see the official denomination position on each of the gifts. And the scripture to back it.I also want to know, regarding tongues, why there would be protocol about tongues in assembly if indeed tongues were simply like speaking Greek or Spanish. Paul, I believe, indicates that tongues in assembly should not be practiced without an interpreter. This implies very strongly that there is an unknown language to all present. Probably the tongues of angels but that isn’t clear. What is clear is nobody was understanding at the time of utterance.

    What about the statement that people were drunk? Hardly an indication that people knew what they were doing and saying.

  • Tim Wirth John here is the link on Breeze and Azuza Street Its actually from the Azuza street website but is indeed an exact quote http://www.azusastreet.org/AzusaStreetBresee.htm
  • Tim Wirth Dan Bohi has also claimed to raise the dead put has not offered proof of the claims
  • Tim Wirth Well I do thank the author of this letter for allowing both sides of the story. Now just I would just ask people to put feelings aside and search the scriptures to see if what either group says is true. If either side in what they state and or teach does not measure up to what scripture teaches I would encourage you to reject it. For sure don’t take my word for it. Check the scriptures to see if what we teach and expose is true. In the end the truth of scripture is the only thing that really matters
  • Richard Mark For me speaking in tongues must be understood out of the reference found in Acts 2. I have had friends tell me that the Holy Spirit takes control of one’s tongue to speak to himself. That doesn’t make sense to me. The same emphasis needs to be placed on the hearers as well as the speakers. verse 8 “how is it that each of us hears them in his own native language….we hear them declaring the wonders of God in our own tongues!” This is definitely a reference to the gift of languages for the benifit of others and not a prayer language which only edifies the speaker. I do believe it is a gift. And to me it is an error to take other tongues passages in an attempt to find new meaning. It all must come out of the initial impartation of the gift found in Acts 2. By the way, in my day we were taught that speaking in tongues was of the devil. I don’t believe that at all. I believe that our charasmatic brothers & sisters love the Lord just as I do. I have seen over the years some leaders in my church who are as deceptive & devil inspired as other professing believers. I have been disappointed to see so called sanctified leaders lie & deceive and assassinate the character of those with whom they disagree. So sad
  • Bob Hunter Okay, just a little clarification here regarding the use of scripture. When the Concerned Group speaks of the “truth of scripture” they fail to mention the assumptions and methods of interpretation they bring to scripture. Nazarenes are not odds with the use of scripture and the importance of Biblical values, we embrace scripture as the foundation of our beliefs and practice. On the other hand, we reject the narrowly defined methodological principles used by this group to interpret scripture. This is why it is pointless to quote scripture back and forth because it basically escalates into a hermeneutical war. So typically when a Concerned follower says, “Reject ____because it does not measure up against scripture” what they are really saying is “Reject _______because it does measure up to MY interpretation of scripture.” So the casual reader should be cautioned not to jump to conclusions without thoughtful consideration as to how scripture is being handled by this group. Their interpretive methods are very selective and narrowly defined. They have adopted a method of interpretation that is quite common in neo-fundamentalist churches where reading scripture literally and opting for a “simple” method of interpretation is preferred. The key problem with that approach is that many other considerations are neglected and what to them is “simple” actually ends up undermining scripture. Thus, what is “simple” results in their opinion and not really the opinion of the Bible writer.
  • Tim Wirth Again Bob chooses to distort the truth. Scipture is not relative the burden is on the Holy Spirit putting ones own agenda aside. Bob also distorts and read into what I said. Anyone can reject what I say if scripture doesnt measure up. I make no premise or assumptions on this as Bob would wrongly suggest. I welcome people to judge from their own lens putting their agendas aside and allowing the Holy Spirit to lead them into the truth of what is being said. Last time I looked Bob cannot read peoples minds. So he really cant speak for me or anyone in any group Im in. Plus the constant disparaging of the word fundamentalist. A fundementalist is not a Baptist or a Calvinist etc.. Its simply one who believes in the fundamentals of the faith. But I digress you decide who’s telling the truth. Someone who points you toward scripture. Or someone who feels comfortable with taking Jesus’s name in vain to sound hip or relevant. Bob just seeks to confuse the issue that has been simply put forth but thats what he is known for. Probably why he took his own videos down from U Tube because it actually helped what we stand for. My policy has always been to let Bob Hunter keep talking : ) Again please don’t take my word for it check scripture whatever choice you make thats ok. You have to choose as God leads you by his Holy Spirit.
  • Al Dameron The Message express what I think we all need to put into practice. Hebrew 6 “So come on, let’s leave the preschool fingerprinting excercises on Christ and get on with the grand work of art. Grow up in Christ. The basic foundational truths are in place: turning your back on “Salvation by self-help” and turning in trust toward God; baptismal instructions; laying on of hands; resurrection of the dead; eternal judgement. God helping us we’ll stay true to all that. But there’s so much more. Let’s get on with it!”
  • Karl Giberson I am amazed at how the Concerned Nazarenes are so confident that they are God’s soldiers. In a more sane world, their tiny numbers and inability to attract well-informed leaders would give them pause to reflect on whether they might be confused. This is the dark side of protestantism–the belief that any tiny group can splinter away and pronounce judgment, without regard for the larger community, or the scholars of their own tradition, who have been unable to help them understand that they are not Nazarene at all.
  • Tim Wirth Well ” inability to attract informed leader’s” is a relative statement and simply your opinion Karl. I will let people come to their own choice based on your record and witness compared to our’s and how that all compares to Gods Word. Because in the end its only God’s Word that matters not the opinions of men.
  • Kevin Wright John,
    The issue of “tongues” or “a prayer language” has been debated in the Church of the Nazarene since its founding and the church has taken a stance. I have to believe that anyone operating outside of this is in rebellion against the church and that they have their own personal agenda. There have been many church splits over the years because people want to see things done their way even if it goes against the church. I can love and respect those that have different views on the subject. However, I have a problem with those (especially Nazarene pastors and associate pastors) that use their influence to bring division to the body just to push their agenda. If they truly believe the Holy Spirit is behind these practices then they should take the advice of the General Superintendents: “those who insist on involvement with neo-Pentecostal manifestations relate to those churches that support such practices”. Personally, I would not want to be a part of a church body that went against what I believe. I would be glad to get together with you and Paula if you would like to discuss this further.For some history on the topic, jump to page 274 in the following document where it talks about “The Church of the Nazarene’s Response to Pentecostalism”:

    http://nazarenepastor.org/ClergyEducation/Portals/0/Christian%20Heritage%202/CH2StuGu.pdf

    Also, the following statement addresses the topic:

    BOARD OF GENERAL SUPERINTENDENTS’ STATEMENT
    December 2, 2002

    From time to time the Board of General Superintendents has been asked the question, “Do Nazarenes believe in the acceptability of neo-Pentecostal manifestations such as being slain in the Spirit, shaking, incessant laughter, and other similar phenomenon? Are these acceptable forms of worship in the Church of the Nazarene?”

    As you know, the Church of the Nazarene made a decision many years ago to disassociate itself from classical Pentecostalism by removing the name “Pentecostal” from the Church of the Nazarene. This was not done lightly. The early Holiness Movement in the United States soon became divided over the issue of tongues-speaking and other Pentecostal manifestations. The Church of the Nazarene felt led by the Spirit to place its emphasis on a changed life as being the evidence of the baptism with the Holy Spirit. We did not then, nor do we now, accept tongues-speaking or prayer language as being evidence of the baptism with the Holy Spirit. Nor are these practices accepted in our churches.

    We make no condemnation of those who practice such things. In fact, we are always grateful for all good men and women everywhere who are accomplishing objectives that advance the work of Christ. However, these phenomena are not a part of our accepted worship experience. This is not who we are. This is not what we do. Where such arises, it is the responsibility of the pastor to explain gently our identity and worship practices and to suggest that those who insist on involvement with neo-Pentecostal manifestations relate to those churches that support such practices.

    It is also the responsibility of our district superintendents and general superintendents to support our pastors as they deal with these delicate issues. Obviously, it is easy to be misunderstood when informing our people that such is not acceptable. Therefore, we want to be cautious and Christlike in providing our people with the information that indicates a lack of support for such practices. Again, this is not part of our identity; this is not who we are. It is strongly felt that by ignoring such practices or even supporting them, we are sowing seeds for the divisiveness that has historically accompanied such activities. Let us be strong and clear in this matter and not fail in our responsibility to clearly declare what we are and what we are not. At this point, we would not suggest long debates or endless discussions but rather a clear, gentle, and simple declaration that this is not a part of the Church of the Nazarene.
    Board of General Superintendents

  • Greg Crofford Hello Bruce — this is timely. Thanks for your courage. That sound you hear is Nazarenes circling the wagons. We know our own. Those who have been attacked by CN are among my heroes! All for one, and one for all.
  • Kathy Frizzell I suppose it’s not the purpose of this conversation, yet I find it interesting that no one (up to the point I began this) has yet ventured to respond to the question asked more than once in this thread as to where the Church of the Nazarene stands on the gifts of the Spirit in general, tongues aside. 1 Corinthians 12:4-12 is too long for me to insert here, but please consider it. I will quote here 1 Corinthians 14:1a…”Eagerly pursue and seek to acquire this love [make it your aim, your great quest]; and earnestly desire and cultivate the spiritual endowments (gifts)…” (AMP), referring to those listed in the first reference. Perhaps for another post entirely, or better yet for conversation in person. However, I take note that it was ignored here, as it sadly seems to be in general in our movement. I love the Church of the Nazarene and long for her to be all that the Word of God calls us to be. But I do believe that she has somewhat handicapped the Holy Spirit because we seem to somehow manage to ignore this part of the Word, and the testimony of it’s demonstration all thru the Book of Acts. If each of us is endowed by the Holy Spirit with at least one of these listed gifts (1 Cor. 12:4-7, see thru vs. 11 for the list) and if it is for the good and profit of all (vs. 7), then surely I’m not the only one who wonders how much the church is missing out on in all God intends because we do not embrace – dare I say we seem to generally reject – this portion of Scripture. My study of God’s word over the last 2-5 years or so has lead me to conclude that truly there is a measure of human or “earthly wisdom” that we are warned about in the epistles that has been used to interpret the Word in places we have a hard time accepting so that it is more palatable to our doctrinal culture. I don’t mean to sound harsh, but I don’t know any other way to express it. I realize it may be with good intentions and done unaware, but at what cost? I am making it my aim to cry out to the Lord every day for the Holy Spirit to usurp ALL of our “opinions” and simply have His way to make us the church He desires us to be. He is looking for a Bride, not a girlfriend. Complete and sold out devotion to ALL of His Word, and thus to the workings and activity of the Holy Spirit among us as described in the passage referenced, seems to me the only logical way to achieve this. Are not the life of Christ and New Testament teachings to be our model and template for instruction and life? I was under the impression that they are. …Holy Spirit, we ask YOU to guide us into all truth as You have promised!… Again, this cannot be properly addressed and discussed here, but I submit it for your individual consideration and private study. He has given us everything we need for life and godliness (2 Peter 1:3) and I for one vote that we embrace all of it. :)
  • Paula Shannon Basnett 1 Cor 12:8-11 “For to one is given the word of wisdom through the Spirit, and to another the word of knowledge according to the same Spirit; 9 to another faith by the same Spirit, and to another gifts R468 of healing by the one Spirit, 10 and to another the effecting of miracles, and to another prophecy, and to another the distinguishing of spirits, to another various kinds of tongues, and to another the interpretation of tongues. 11 But one and the same Spirit works all these things, distributing to each one individually just as He wills.” Not to harp on the use of tongues, but, the Church of the Nazarene seems to be in agreement with all of the gifts of the Holy Spirit, EXCEPT tongues. Tongues is not an indication of being filled with the spirit; it’s a gift from the Holy Spirit – His to give to whom He sees fit. Kevin – “I have to believe that anyone operating outside of this is in rebellion against the church and that they have their own personal agenda.” Could it be that anyone who is willing to dismiss one of the gifts that the Lord so graciously bestows might, perhaps, be on their own personal agenda?
  • Kevin Wright Paula, you must not have read the document I posted. The Nazarene Church is not denying the gifts of Tongues. The position on the interpretation of scripture just does not agree with the Pentecostal interpretation. “The gift of tongues is related to the miraculous gift of many language barriers. The people present were astonished because each one heard the gospel being preached in his own native dialect (Acts 2:6, 8). This special miracle was an expression of God’s desire to reach every man everywhere through the spoken and written word. Language is the vehicle of God’s truth. We believe that the biblical material supports one authentic gift—a language given to communicate the gospel and not an unknown babble of sounds. It is our understanding that in 1 Corinthians 12; 13; 14, Paul was seeking to prevent the abuse of the authentic gift and condemning that which was spurious and of the flesh. We believe that the religious exercise called “tongues” which is not a means of communicating truth is a false gift and a dangerous substitute. We do not believe in a so-called prayer language.”
  • Paula Shannon Basnett For Bresee the center of Christianity was “the coming of the Holy Ghost,” the disciples’ experience of Pentecost. This event superseded the incarnation, suffering, atonement, and resurrection of Jesus. “But for the coming of the Holy Ghost all else were lost,” he said in a 1903 sermon, “all that went before would have disappeared. The coming of the Spirit established Christianity, and continues to give it power and efficiency.”
    “He (the Holy Spirit) fills the spirit with the light of his thought. . . . His presence . . . brings us into highest relationship to eternal verities, and into fellowship with immortal personalities. . . . When [He] pours his infinite exhaustless thought, in perennial and increasing streams through the soul; when the virtue of His own soul-life flows in infinite purity through all the avenues of our being; when His love, all aflame and aglow, fills the fountains of our being; we are almost touching the mount of transfiguration. . . . There is such a thing as overcoming gravitation. You fill a body with a substance so much lighter than air that you overcome the weight of the body and it will rise. A soul in which Jesus Christ lives is so filled with heavenly atmosphere that it mounts heavenward.[16]” – Phineas Brisee http://publishing.cdlib.org/ucpressebooks/view?docId=ft1z09n7fq&chunk.id=d0e1883&toc.depth=1&toc.id=0&brand=eschol&query=brisee Does that sound a little like a “hopeful Nazarene?”
  • Wade Brill So, Kevin – if that interpretation of 1 Cor. 14 is correct, why did Paul not say, “If there is no interpretation, the tongue is not from God”? Why did he say that the one who speaks in that language strengthens himself and speaks mysteries? And why did he explicitly state that the practice is not to be forbidden?
    How can we not comprehend the danger of placing greater limits on a gift of the Spirit than the Spirit Himself did through Paul? And, how can we so arrogantly assert the “known language” canard when there are over 6,800 distinct languages in the world? Shall we station linguists in every church so we can decide if the Spirit knows what He is doing? Or should we rather honor the degree of specificity the apostle gave us, ask the speaker to be silent if there is no interpretation, and quit demonizing those who may be experiencing something we haven’t?
  • Richard Mark Good for you Kevin
  • Paula Shannon Basnett “the religious exercise called “tongues” which is not a means of communicating truth is a false gift and a dangerous substitute.” How can you call it a false gift and NOT deny it?
  • Kevin Wright Wow, I didn’t write it, that statement is from the Board of General Superintendents. If you disagree, the proper way to address it is with them or through the General Assembly.
  • Kevin Wright In response to John’s question as to what is the official position of the church.
  • Tim Wirth Paula just tried the link and it does work
  • Kevin Wright It is a false gift if it is not communicating truth.
  • Tim Wirth Funny how people so often accuse the CN group of trying to change the direction ,history or purpose of the Nazarene denomination. But there are other comments here that want to also take the denomination in a different direction . The Charismatic or Pentecostal direction which at times is full of peril. Most of all in my opinion that which Dan Bohi promotes which seems to go against the grain of the GS statement Kevin posted. I can see why Emergent Church people or those who promote that agenda would want the denomination to go in that direction. Its just another form of experience based Christianity which goes outside the scripture in practice. Extra biblical revelation etc..
  • Paula Shannon Basnett Tim, here’s the response I get from the page: This webpage is not available
    The server at www.azusastreet.org can’t be found,
  • Kevin Wright Welcome to my world Tim. :( The reason I posted the statements from the BOGS is because it should put the issue to rest. The last statement summed it up this way: “It is strongly felt that by ignoring such practices or even supporting them, we are sowing seeds for the divisiveness that has historically accompanied such activities. Let us be strong and clear in this matter and not fail in our responsibility to clearly declare what we are and what we are not. At this point, we would not suggest long debates or endless discussions but rather a clear, gentle, and simple declaration that this is not a part of the Church of the Nazarene.”
  • Paula Shannon Basnett A different view of scripture than yours, is being divisive?
  • John ShinglerI’m looking for a current official position on all the gifts. I will try to contact higher than district for a written position.As far as the phrase emergent church goes though I have found it as quantitative as the phrase hate speach.

    On one end of the spectrum it is used to pitch the Holy Spirit from what I can see and on the other end of the range it is the Unitarian church with a Christian tag.

    It seems to be a catch all phrase/waste paper basket.

  • John Shingler Just saying its really vague and convenient for a phrase.
  • Kevin Wright Once again, it is not only my view. It is the historical, documented view of the Church of the Nazarene. Someone, please correct me if I am wrong. Knowing this and encouraging it’s practice in the church is divisive.
  • Kathy Frizzell As far as I can see, John is still waiting for a response regarding the official position we take on ALL the gifts. I have been a Nazarene since I was 8 or 9 years old, but I can’t answer his question. I know what the Word says, but I do not know of any official stance COTN has taken. I would love to so that I am equipped to answer the question when it is asked. Is there anyone who can help John and me out on this one?
  • Wade Brill Kevin, it is only divisive if the official position is Biblical. When the response to an attempt at substantive dialogue is “find another church”, the result is not unity. Where, in all of Scripture, are we called to submit to a church authority that tells us to disobey the Word? Paul’s account in Galatians 2 tells us otherwise.
  • Tim Wirth http://www.azusastreet.org/AzusaStreetBresee.htm Paula it is here I just clicked on the link I gave above and it took me right there
  • Paula Shannon Basnett Thanks, Tim. Tired it in Explorer and it popped right up. This is the same story I quoted above: “The two principal things which are emphasized, and wherein they claim to differ from others, is, that Christians are sanctified before they receive the baptism with the Holy Ghost, this baptism being a gift of power upon the sanctified life, and that the essential and necessary evidence of the baptism is the gift of speaking with new tongues.” — P.F. Bresee” http://www.sendrevival.com/history/azusa_street/news_clipping/nazarene_opinion.htm

  • Paula Shannon Basnett If you care to read the official statement, here is a link to the study guide that the future pastors are given. The explanation of tongues begins on page 274. Seems as though this has been a point of “divisiveness” for quite a while. http://nazarenepastor.org/ClergyEducation/Portals/0/Christian%20Heritage%202/CH2StuGu.pdf
  • Kevin Wright Wade, if you believe the BOGS are instructing you to disobey the Word, then you need to address it with them. I am just posting their statements in an effort to establish the historical position of the church.
  • Wade Brill That statement was drafted ten years ago, and you know full well that the issue, in both theology and practice, is in a state of flux within the COTN. You are attempting to do just what the original post addressed about CNs – stifle dialogue on a complex issue by browbeating people with a declaration that honest questions and dialogue are tantamount to division. That is not love and does not promote unity.
  • Paula Shannon Basnett “From the beginning we have believed that the authentic gifts of the Spirit belong to the Church. While it is God’s will that every believer should be baptized and empowered with the Holy Spirit, it is not God’s promise that every believer should receive any particular gift. On the contrary, the gifts are distributed by the Holy
    Spirit to the various believers according to the Spirit’s sovereign will (1 Corinthians12:11).” Yet in the same document written by BOGS – “We have concluded that what is being practiced and promoted today is not the
    true scriptural gift and is therefore not to be condoned by our church . . .Therefore, we counsel that people practicing “tongues-speaking”or promoting it in any way should be encouraged and advised to seek membership elsewhere unless they are willing to discontinue their practice and their advocacy.”
  • Tim Wirth Ahh Unity forsaking biblical truth funny how some would call this a lack of love. Warning people of false teaching is not love?Thats not what scripture teaches. Sound doctrine will always divide. Funny also how some will preach love and tolerance but do not love or show tolerance for other’s. I know most here do not think we are worth love or tolerance. But being compared to the Taliban,called jihadists and called bullies, sucker punchers jukes, and thugs. PS we did invite Jon Middendorf and his entire family to Couer De Alene Idaho where we filmed the dvd. All expenses and accommodations for his whole family wre offered so Jon could present his side of the story (unedited). Jon declined as was his right. Then rumors abound on Naz Net that the CN group was out to get Jon and Scott Daniels and one of the Naz Net guys was there to protect Jon. Yep lots of love there. Doesn’t matter what the truth is. Doesnt matter that some our views are different. Yes the denomination claims to be a big tent. We are told though there is no room for us. Thats ok. We will still get the information out and let people be good Bereans and decide on their own who is telling the truth. If our articles do not reflect scriptural truth Im asking you to please reject them. If they do align with scripture please let the Holy Spirit guide you in what choices you would make. There are still a lot of great Nazarene churches out there. The Nazarene church was once compared to an old beater by one who opposes us. I was drawn to the Nazarene church that I went to because of the wonderful call to holiness.The God who wrote scripture through his Holy Spirit through human authors will get the victory over all this in spite of opposition.
  • Wade Brill I never called anyone any names. But if you accept the spotlighting of false doctrine as love, you must be willing to condemn the stance that says “conform or leave” to those with honest questions; otherwise, you are only engaging in dishonesty and manipulation to advance your agenda. My experience has been that those who fall back on the “historical positions” are unwilling to reevaluate their own theology or to admit how much fundamental doctrinal change the COTN has undergone over the last century.
  • Kevin Wright Paula, I think the first part of the statement you are referring to relates to what they believed is the true gift “The gift of tongues is related to the miraculous gift of many language barriers”, while the second part that you quoted is referring to the Pentecostal practice that was being promoted, which is what they state “is not the true scriptural gift”. So, you are comparing apples and oranges.
  • Kevin Wright Wade, I do not know that it is in a state of flux. The church’s position hasn’t changed for 100 years so why would one assume that a ten year old statement is no longer valid. I will wait until I see a new statement or a resolution passed at General Assembly before I will accept your premise that the Church’s position is changing. I’m not trying to stifle dialogue just documenting history. Feel free to continue to push your opinion.
  • Brenda Brockman Diefenbacher In regards to Bruce Barnard’s open letter, and in his response to Concerned Nazarenes who oppose humanism in the form of emergent ideoloogy being syncretized into the Nazarene denomination via some of the people he listed; this response by Bruce is understandable, because as I recall, up until recently, he was the administrator for a FB site called: Emerging Nazarenes.
    (No, I didn’t google this. I remembered it.)
    It is no longer an active group on FB after the new FB format went through.So, it is good to be aware from what perspective this open letter comes. I understand Bruce’s anger and frustration with the Concerned Nazarenes. We expose emergent ideology for what it is, liberalism/humanism.

  • Tim Wirth Wade Ive always just suggested read the info and make a choice to reject it or agree and make your own choice. I have never stated that people leave the Nazarene church or denomination just be aware of whats going on inside the denomination. As I have stated above there are many fine Nazarene churches out there. Doctrinal change? There is the problem because scripture and doctrine does not change due to mans culture change. We are called to change the culture not allow the culture to change us. Scripture talks about putting off the flesh the old man. Thats what holiness is about. Not accepting or conforming to the culture around us. The simple gospel of Jesus Christ that is written in scripture still works. It still saves. Scripture does not change because of what happens around us.
  • Wade Brill 100 years ago, Nazarenes believed they would spread holiness across the globe, end all war and usher in the literal Kingdom on earth. 40 years ago, serious criticism was launched against those who began to propose a new understanding of entire sanctification, but that view was later incorporated into the Article X. You know very well that there are many areas where the issue of tongues is being handled very differently than in the past – but the point of this post was about the tactics of those who insist on static orthodoxy and attack those who try to dialogue about differing perspectives. It is you who continue to promote the “conform or leave” mentality. This is not about “pushing an opinion”; it is about acting in love toward those who disagree with you. Above, Tim promoted “warning people of false doctrine” as love, but it is clear that many of those who defend the “historical position” consider that a one-way street.
  • Wade Brill Tim, Scripture and doctrine are not automatically synonymous. Doctrine is man’s attempt to interpret Scripture, and we should – must – have the humility to admit we don’t get it all right. Nazarenes claim to be fundamentally Wesleyan – yet Wesley refused to equate Pentecost with entire sanctification, believed the “extraordinary” gifts like tongues, prophecy and healings only ceased b/c the “love of many grew cold”, and believed that anyone who claimed to have a prayer language should be left alone as long as he/she abided by 1 Cor. 14. Nazarene doctrine is an accumulation of well-meant attempts to interpret Scripture, and it has undergone major evolution and change in the last century. Can you really be so comfortable throwing out terms like “false doctrine” and drawing stark dichotomies when the COTN has departed from even Wesley’s teachings? Where is the humility to consider that, perhaps, some of the newer perspectives might have merit, whether they carrry a label of “charismatic” or not?
  • Stephen SickelWhat an interesting conversation. Bruce, I agree with you and applaud your stance. It is amazing how you have been proven correct with in the responses.Kevin, you are a wiser and more patient man than I, I love you man.

  • Cindy Wiles Daye Everyone is talking about love….but I am not feeling it.
  • Paula Shannon Basnett Actually, Kevin…I believe the first part is the Nazarene church saying they believe in the gifts of the Holy Spirit. Yet, the second part of the quote states that they do not believe that tongues is a real gift. That it is in fact, a “false gift.” I believe that comparing gifts to gifts is comparing apples to apples.
  • Paula Shannon Basnett Tim, maybe you have never suggested that anyone leave the Nazarene church due to what’s going on in the denomination, but the statements that the COTN, to which you belong and uphold their doctrine, definitely states that. You are saying the exact opposite of what the BOGS states in their document. Are you saying that you are tolerant of other members of the COTN that believe differently than you do? I believe your statement, “There is the problem because scripture and doctrine does not change due to mans culture change,” contradicts itself. Scripture and the Lord do NOT change. Doctrines do not change when they are upheld as idols and gods in themselves.
  • John ShinglerIs there a contemporary and official document stating the official Nazarene denomination’s position on ALL of the gifts of the spirit? Is there anything official that reaffirms the document from ten years ago? (the denomination with the deeds to the Universities)I still want to know this. I want to know if I am in agreement or disagreement with the position but I need the position.

  • Paula Harper Briceland Sounds like a bunch of Pharisees and Sadducees arguing about doctrines. Where is God and the Holy Spirit in that?!? Alot of judging going on. No grace….or mercy
  • Kathy Frizzell The Nazarene Manual can also be viewed online, or at least I was able to access it within the last couple of years.
  • Wade Brill I’m sorry, Paula H.B., but I have to disagree with that and say its an unfair characterization. We are told to test everything and to hold onto what is good. Jesus, Paul and others debated such issues with others because establishing the truth is important. It is especially so when we are talking about the work of the Spirit, since Jesus reserved the heaviest judgment for those who were condemning the Spirit’s works as the handiwork of Satan. The CNs are characterizing the “gift” experiences of others as false; that is a weighty accusation that must be addressed.
  • Cindy Wiles Daye I think the problem we run into using facebook as a platfrom for such debates is that without the opportunity to read body language, make eye contact and even exchanges, misunderstanding is easy to happen. I think we also say things that maybe we would have thought twice about, or phrased more carefully if the person were actually face to face with us. I get that this is a crucial topic for our church, I am wonder though how as a church we reach the lost if we are focus inward.
  • Paula Shannon Basnett Cindy, we’ve had that exchange before. All that happens when issues aren’t addressed is that they get swept under the rug and hushed – for a while. If we can’t have a healthy discourse on issues that concern our church, how in the world are we going to have any kind of healthy discourse with an unbeliever?
  • Cindy Wiles Daye I think my best chance to witness to a unbeliever though will be face to face and in a relationship….I am okay with the debate itself…I get that. I just have concerns about the way some of these post on facebook seem to be going…
  • Cindy Wiles Daye p.s. we are clearly night owls! maybe we should do coffee in the morning…and by morning I am thinking like 11 ish :)
  • Kathy Frizzell Coffee? 11:00? Panera? Face to face conversation? :)
  • Paula Shannon Basnett Not Pharisees and Sadducees … how about The Jerusalem Council…
  • Cindy Wiles Daye ohh sounds so good! I have to work today, but Wed I am totally available :)
  • Tim Wirth Doctrine is man’s attempt to interpret Scripture, and we should – must – have the humility to admit we don’t get it all right. Thats not what scripture teaches though Wade and Im talking about the essentials of the faith here. If you make a broad brush statement like that their there is no real truth its just relative to the individual. I do believe that you have to lay agendas aside to properly let the Holy Spirit lead you. Here is what scripture teaches about doctrine.2 Tim 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: 2Tim 4:3″For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears;”
  • Paula Shannon Basnett Tim, what agenda are you willing to lay aside?
  • Tim Wirth As far as the gifts go words of knowledge and wisdom which are teaching gifts and still exist have been turned into people being able to read minds and get the latest scoop in your personal life. Thats how guys like Kenneth Hagin and the other Word faith-ers have corrupted the actual gifts. Whe I was firs saved I went to a Rod Parsley church plant here in Ohio. I was immediately put on a praise and worship team because of my resume and background as a drummer/percussionist. Then I started to compare what scripture teaches to what was being taught. I actually went up to Rod Parsley after he had come down for a camp meeting and questioned him about what he was teaching because being in the band I had access to him. I will never forget the look I got . I was very polite it was an honest question I really just wanted to know the truth because what he was teaching seemed to conflict with scripture (and it did). Needles to say I was told to keep drumming and leave the heavy stuff to the anointed one’s. I didnt last long there. So my point . Is the Nazarene denomination eager to take on Brownsville lite type of revivals and teachings from people like Bill Johnson and other like him. I think the problem in the Body of Christ at large is that they are bored with just good sound bible teaching and they want something that will give them an experience. Our mutual enemy satan is more than happy to bring experiences. False ones. Shaking like lunatics and breaking out in uncontrollable laughter (as we see in false revival not when someone tells a funny joke). Plus people faalling down. As well as all the emphasis on signs and wonders. Is this what the scripture teaches and is this the direction the Nazarene denomination wants to go? Will it fill seats? You only have to look at Todd Bentley revival films to answer that question. But is that how you want to fill seats? Seems to be with the start of bringing in the Emergent church to this denomination as well as bringing in other strange fire it seems that the leadership is looking the other way discernment wise just to fill the pews. Thats just my opinion. You have to make up your own minds as well.
  • Tim Wirth Paula my only agenda is the truth of scripture. I realize thats a loaded answer but thats my heart. The problem is my own answer can be turned around on me (and Im sure it will be) to defend the position of those who oppose what I stand for. But its not a relative answer and inspite of the debate I really just want to point people toward scripture and let Gods word rule their hearts not mine. Thats why I always encourage people to make their own choice. When we all stand before God one day we will not be able to use others as an excuse. I take that thought very seriously. So dont look to truth from my words unless it agree’s with scripture. The sad thing is that it is now the time when people point away from scripture as you can see in the teachings and comments of many who have posted. To me the scriptures are as reliable today as they were when they were written inspired by the Holy Spirit and without error. There will always be those who attempt to point out error in scripture. I believe all of Gods Word is true without error. That indeed is my only agenda. So yes their will always be opposition and accusations of my agenda. But the bottom line is in the end Im not your judge and when you stand before the Lord you cant use me as an excuse either way. So I encourage people to make their own choice because you will have to live with that in the end. Again I say if you search the scriptures and see that what I say is not true. Reject it. The scripture’s is our only source of truth because it is Gods Word.
  • Kathy Frizzell Tim, are you currently a member of a Nazarene church?
  • Tim Wirth Just one other comment…Human beings are natural-born moralists, and moralism is the most potent of all the false gospels. The language of “values” is the language of moralism and cultural Protestantism — what the Germans called Kulturprotestantismus. This is the religion that produces cultural Christians, and cultural Christianity soon dissipates into atheism, agnosticism, and other forms of non-belief. Cultural Christianity is the great denomination of moralism, and far too many church folk fail to recognize that their own religion is only cultural Christianity — not the genuine Christian faith.
  • Tim Wirth Paula you do follow a lot of what the scriptures would call false teaching. So I do see where you are coming from. So you can either acknowledge or reject what we write about. Thats your choice to heed warnings or not.
  • Tim Wirth Kathy no I do not. I was attending a nazarene church when I co founded the group Concerned Nazarenes. Some of us are still concerned about the Nazarene denomination and our many brothers and sisters in Christ who still attend Nazarene churches. So in answering you I know where this will be going. Some of our opposition also do not or did not attend a Nazarene church but they still are in there making statements in opposition to our group. They are allowed a pass when we are not. So let it be what it will be. Its not fair but thats ok. I would like to end my contribution to this conversation with this passage of scripture. Galatians 1:6-9
    New King James Version (NKJV)
    Only One Gospel6 I marvel that you are turning away so soon from Him who called you in the grace of Christ, to a different gospel, 7 which is not another; but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ. 8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel to you than what we have preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, if anyone preaches any other gospel to you than what you have received, let him be accursed.

  • Paula Harper Briceland Tim, I believe I do not know you! Was wondering how you know what I believe?!? :)
  • Paula Shannon Basnett Tim, you evaded my question: are you willing to lay down any personal agenda? As for me…no, I was also a member of one of Parsley’s churches…until, I also was unable to ask questions without getting “the look” and “the answer.” I joined the COTN because I love their scriptural, solid foundation. However, after being in the church for 12 years, I’m finding the same raised eyebrows and the same head shakes when doctrine is questioned in light of scripture. If we, as the body of Christ, cannot look past our doctrines and traditions, and at least consider that perhaps God is not impressed with them, then are we any better than the Pharisees? I know you’ve heard it before, but they were looking for a king. Jesus didn’t come the way they expected. He came as a poor, homeless baby. Jesus was a Jew, but not a traditional Jew. He ministered on the Sabbath, He overturned tables in the temple. That is untraditional and shocking! If we aren’t surprised and a little startled by how the Lord reveals Himself to us, then are we really living as Christians? If we aren’t willing to be challenged by an “un”doctrinated, untraditional Jesus, then we’re living powerless, selfish, indoctrinated lives. God is NOT impressed with doctrine. Who do I follow? False teaching?? Hopefully, I am following the Lord. One question – You can tell by a few statements what I follow and think… hmmmm that sounds like a word or knowledge that you so flippantly discredit.
  • Paula Shannon Basnett Tim Wirth, Steadfast Harvest?
  • Kathy Frizzell Thanks for responding to my question. And no worries, I didn’t plan on going anywhere with it. I was curious given your own background you shared and the fact that I could find nothing on your profile about the COTN, tho you are obviously passionate about our denomination and what you believe. Thanks for taking the time to share. :)
  • Paula Shannon Basnett Tim, you’re not going to answer the questions I posed?
  • James M. Bearden Kathy, I share your concern! So much garbage in the entire “Concerned Nazarenes” report. I still have hope…,,Jmb
  • John ShinglerI’m looking at this Nazarene manual and found exclusionary content not found in the Bible but its just a side note. I bring it up only because the feeling I get here is that doctrine is held as infallible (or very close) as the Bible for some folks. Here is the extra criteria I find curious regarding alcohol and tobacco in 34.5:”our position and practice is abstinence rather than moderation” and “we call our people to total abstinance from all intoxicants”

    Just find this curious.

    I am looking at the larger document though regarding tongues and other gifts. I have only glanced but from what I can see there are two denominations talking here in this thread. Not too sure if the Nazarene churches believe this document. Might want to make a new document…

  • Paula Harper Briceland Truth! Truth is, the gospel is so simple and many miss it because of that. Truth is the world is full of sinners, all have sinned as a matter of fact. Only Christ could save us! He came and shared and died on a cross for all! He arose from that grave freeing us from the bondage of sin and judgement. He sent His Holy Spirit to live within us, and guide us and teach us. So go into the all the world and preach the gospel, baptizing in the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. If you are all caught up in this endless debate, people will die and not know the love of Christ.
  • John Shingler The debate is worthwhile from what I see Paula. I witness to people on a somewhat frequent basis. But if I plan on aiming them towards a church that God would approve of I want to be clear on its position. Nobody will die because I am on my lunchbreak and participating in a discussion that has everything to do with steering people the right way. I lost my faith for a period of time thanks to trusting false doctrine over personal study. I won’t be guilty of doing that to another person. Matthew 23 pretty much hammers down what happens to a lot of people.
  • Richard Mark Hey Bruce & Thomas, why are you deleting my comments from the discussion?
  • Wade Brill Paula H.B., the gospel is both demonstration of the Kingdom of God and proclamation of the message of salvation, as evidenced in John 14:11, Acts 4:28-30, and Acts 14:3, among other places. The CNs and others like them would dismiss any such focus on the miraculous demonstration of the power of God, but there is no NT precedent for simply telling people what to believe and leaving it at that. The disciples had the TRUTH of the message after Jesus’ Ascension, but they were told to wait til the Spirit came upon them with POWER. It is not Biblical to demonize and dismiss those who pursue both the fruit and the gifts, yet the CNs and those like them do exactly that. We aren’t distracting from the Gospel – we are fighting for the proclamation of the full Gospel. By all accounts, the COTN in the US is having very little impact as far as converts and making disciples; perhaps its time to reevaluate just what Gospel we are proclaiming.
  • John ShinglerOk, I think I found the crux of the CN argument from that document:Article 903.11.Evidence of Baptism with the Holy Spirit. “to affirm that even a special or any alledgedphysical evidence, or prayer language, is evidence of the baptism with the Spirit is contrary to the biblical and historic position of the Church. (2009).

    I have no good understanding of why this is doctrine when held up against 1 Corinthians chapters 12 and 14.

    The doctrine is in direct conflict with this.

  • Kevin WrightIt’s really pretty simple. From the BOGS statement:”The gift of tongues is related to the miraculous gift of many language barriers. The people present were astonished because each one heard the gospel being preached in their own native dialect (Acts 2:6, 8). This special miracle was an expression of God’s desire to reach every person everywhere through the spoken and written word. Language is the vehicle of God’s truth. We believe that the biblical material supports one authentic gift—a language given to communicate the gospel and not an unknown babble of sounds. It is our understanding that in 1 Corinthians 12; 13; 14, Paul was seeking to prevent the abuse of the authentic gift and condemning that which was spurious and of the flesh. We believe that the religious exercise called “tongues” which is not a means of communicating truth is a false gift and a dangerous substitute. We do not believe in a so-called prayer language.”

    They are not denying that there is a valid gift of tongues or language. Agree or disagree, that is the latest documented position. You are not going to accomplish anything on facebook, take it to the BOGS or General Assembly.

  • John ShinglerI see only an opinion offered as a doctrine. It doesn’t reflect the content of Paul literal sentences.I have taken French, Spanish, and Swahili. I have worked with Germans and Swedes. Even Portuguese.

    I can assure you that it all sounds like babbling noises when you are not familiar.

    Let alone Paul talking about the tongues of angels.

  • John ShinglerIf nothing is accomplished on Facebook…why are we all talking? Near as I can tell from my current efforts to talk with the COTN big wigs…facebook is the ONLY forum for discussion.Your statement, Kevin, appears to defeat the reason behind the Concerned Nazarene website and Facebook pages. Both of which I have looked at. Both of us are visiting this man’s open letter. I find the discussion very enlightening.

  • Kevin Wright I’m not saying it is not a good forum to discuss it. It just isn’t the way to get it changed if you don’t like it.
  • Wade Brill The point of the post wasn’t tongues. It was and is the heavyhanded tactics of a vocal few who demonize those who seek open dialogue. Coming onto this man’s post to repeat the same tired “conform or leave” diatribe just affirms the author’s point.
  • Kevin Wright If you would look back through the posts, John and Paula were the ones that started the discussion on “tongues” in the Church. All I did was post links to the COTN documents to answer questions they were asking. Maybe this points to the fact that the church is doing a lousy job educating the people on the history and doctrine of the church. You don’t need to attack the messenger just because you disagree with the message.
  • Wade Brill I wasn’t aware you were made messenger for the church. This post was a man’s heartfelt expression about wrong tactics used by a small number of self-appointed guardians of truth. The CNs openly protested the COTN – in front of the public and the media – at the 2009 Gen. Assembly. Where is your outrage at THEIR failure to just follow their leaders? Or is it only their – your- particular stance that is permitted open dissent?
  • John ShinglerI was actually looking for the position on all the gifts. Tongues got singled out because I heard rumors that that gift was claimed as not real by the Nazarenes. The document that finally surfaced indicates that this rumor is reality.I have looked at the CN stuff and its proponents are rampant with attacking language. Particularly against Bohi who quite accurately diagnosed a lot of the probems at WCN.

    That conflict of position strongly drew my attention.

    In my final assessment, so far anyway, the CN believes that the doctrine supercedes scripture. Or atleast has the right to tell God what He can do.

  • Kevin Wright I don’t know what went on at the GA in 2009, wasn’t there. However, it seems to me that would be the place to bring up issues that need to be addressed by the general church. Just like in 1972 when there were a few that tried to get the denomination to change their view on tongues which was voted down.
  • Paula Shannon Basnett kevin, I found a document this morning and the debate of specifically tongues was on the table as late as 2009. That was the last manual that was printed. I, too, am concerned that the COTN has lost it’s aiblity to have any influence on the American culture. And, the manual does seem to supercede the Lord as scripture as far as the COTN is concerned. Another point is that if this manual is above or even equal to scripture why is the membership of the church ignorant of so many iof its rules and regulations? Why is the manual not taught openly to the membership? I see Tim disappeared….
  • Wade Brill Actually, my understanding is that, in ’72, GS Stowe pounded the podium and shouted, “We will NOT speak in tongues!” Not sure any vote was taken, but you might reflect on the fact that those you are castigating over tongues are not doing anything but trying to make their voices heard to a leadership that shows no interest in dialogue. Your repeated pushing of the 2002 statement reinforces their “if you don’t like it, leave” position, even as legitimize the protests of those with whom you agree.
  • Bruce Barnard I’ve stayed off this until now – but I’d stack the credentials, training, and theological knowledge of ANY of our GS’s and many if not most of our Nazarene religion faculty against most posting on this list (especially up to and including ME)…it’s not that wise people can’t disagree on scriptural interpretation, but to write and speak as though one has more insight than these folks is the height of arrogance…and to do so as though they are foolish in their interpretation, I offer this warning…“You have heard that it was said to those of old, ‘You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.’ But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, ‘You fool!’ will be liable to the hell of fire.” Matthew 5:21-22
  • Kevin Wright Well said Bruce!
  • Christa Long Jamison I got through about half of this and am just sick. Makes me want to just go hug a sinner and feed some homeless to cleanse myself! I’ve clicked on most of the profiles of those claiming to be part of the Concerned group and haven’t found one that actually has any formal theological training yet. I may have missed some, and no, I’m not claiming that formal Christian secondary education guarantees that anyone is an expert, but I’m a junior at Nazarene Bible College and most of the things debated here have been explained quite thoroughly in some of my lowest level classes. I am certainly not trying to condescend to anyone, but wouldn’t trying to interpret the Bible within your own knowledge alone be like me watching brain surgery for a few times and then trying to do it myself? I have come to be ashamed at the amount of judgment I have cast on folks for most of my adult life based solely my own (uneducated) Biblical Interpretation before seeking formal education. And frankly, this whole debate is like being a girl and trying to fight your way into the Boy Scouts. If you don’t agree, just leave and let God deal with us! The biggest tragedy of all would be for your points to be true, but your methods to keep you from eternity with Christ. If we’re that wrong, why not just move along and live out the Gospel in your own way instead of wasting so much precious ministry time trying to prove so many wrong?
  • Mike MongSo, Kevin, you are THE MESSENGER for WCN? Well then, I guess you would be the man to ask. What does your doctrine say about diminishing, demonizing, and utterly dismissing the existence of those members within your denomination that may have a difference of opinion with the governing church board? I believe this is part of the bullying that Bruce had first mentioned in this thread. It seems as if you are really supporting this “conform or leave” doctrine by trying to browbeat and classify people with a difference of opinion as followers of a false prophet instead of being an actual MESSENGER of Christ.I have been ridiculed and ostrisized by members of that church just because I dont agree with the direction of the governing body, but I have kept those opinions to myself because they have not been necessarily from God. I have been called everything in the book from blasphemer to the antichrist himself by these members because of my difference of opinion. I have never tried to sway others in the congregation to my way of thinking to create controversy. Now that I have done the latter of your “conform or leave” doctrine, I am labeled a coward for not showing up for Sunday service. And when I do show up, I can look forward to being fiollowed by the church “security” staff and at least 3 undercover police officers. Why? I have made no personal threats against anyone.U You have said that Wade has used his influence “push” people into thinking liked him, but are you not in fact doing the same. Conform or be an outcast! Thats all I’m hearing from you! What happened to love and share the gospel to your fellow man regardless of his beliefs? Just because people have left or disagree with your stance doesnt mean that they are evil or are being influenced by Wade to follow his direction. Personally, Wade and I weren’t even speaking to each other at the time of this falling out within the church, so how can you classify me as being influenced by him. What/who gives you the authority to classify anyone. My feelings that things were going in the wrong direction had been going on for years before then. These recent events have only renewed and strengthened our friendship.

    I may not be as educated as most if the people on here or as well versed to quote scriptures from the Bible, but I am a believer and I follow only one being, and that’s our Lord God! And if he is letting me feel that something is wrong then you can make damn sure I’m gonna believe that feeling. And believe me I know bullying when I see it, because I spent a good majority of my “before salvation” life being one.

    So,in conclusion, you (and this includes everybody in this thread) can come on here and use your fancy language and quote scripture and doctrine all day long, but is it really accomplishing anything? Most of the time it makes people who are at a crucial point in their walk with Christ draw further away from God. The bullying has to stop. The “conform or leave” doctrine has to stop. People will always have a difference of opinion on what the scripture actually says according to their interpretation. That is for God to show them discernment in interpretation of the Word and not for self proclaimed “MESSENGERS” to try and force them into their interpretation.

  • Andrew Magnuson I don’t remember the bible talking about a season for “whole-earth scorched” talk about fellow Christians. Actually…I don’t remember the bible saying that whole-earth scorching is part of building up the Kingdom of God. This may be because I am a newly ordained minister, and it might get me unfriended, but…seriously…can’t we just live like Christ called us to live…in LOVE. I agree with you, Bruce…you said it well… I wish that we could all just see a bigger picture than our denomination (which I usually love…outside of bashing from CN). I stand by what I believe Christ has called me to… I don’t do it well enough, but I try to the best of my ability with HIM working through me to be Christ to others….Love God…Serve Others.
  • Zack Hunt “‘I’ve clicked on most of the profiles of those claiming to be part of the Concerned group and haven’t found one that actually has any formal theological training yet” – Christa: Are you trying to say that using Google to do “research” doesn’t constitute formal theological training and expertise?? :)
  • Paula Shannon Basnett The launching pad has become the powder keg!
  • Christa Long Jamison Zack, if it is, I’d save a LOT of money! I could get ordained in the Church of Wikipedia?!?!
  • John ShinglerI’ve worn as many brands of jeans as I have been to denominations. Sadly, the labels have so far become more important at each one than the functionality and when that happens the costs of patronage have always seemed to go up and the functionality gone proportionately down. Unfortunately the idea, or in this case the Truth, always gets buried in the institution.I have been talking and arguing with God all my life and while He always wins He’s never made me feel like I know him less because I don’t have a theological degree. For those of you that who put stock in that path…good luck with that. I am not looking at you as any better equipped than anybody writing here. That includes the folks I don’t see eye to eye with. Keep your ordinations and your church histories. Hope that keeps you warm at night.

  • RoseMary Welch Taylor Sometimes you just gotta step on some toes!!!!
  • Paula Shannon Basnett any links concerning doctrine I have posted have been straight from Nazarene websites. The only link that wasn’t strictly Nazarene is the one from which i copied a quote by Brisee. I may not have a theology degree, and I may not be the best versed, but I have concerns. When debate is stifled and shut down; when doctrine (and BOGS) seems to be more important than hearing and respecting a differing opinion – then, brothers and sisters, it’s time to be concerned.
  • Christa Long Jamison I don’t think you want to be heard. You want to be right. There is a difference. Your points HAVE been heard… and debated… many times over the decades. And it’s been decided many times that your opinion does NOT line up with that of the Nazarene theology. So move along. The fact that you haven’t only proves my point that you just want to be right.
  • David W. EdwardsRE: “the heavyhanded tactics of a vocal few who demonize those who seek open dialogue”. I was at the 2009 General Assembly, and those who called themselves Concerned Nazarenes did not appear to me to be “seeking open dialogue”. They were simply accusing certain leaders of heresy. There is a process to bring concerns to the floor of the assembly, and seeking to bypass or interrupt the process is not constructive.I am a Nazarene by birth and by choice. I have experience with other denominations and have been a student of doctrine for many years. I continue with the Church of the Nazarene because I believe in her doctrine. People have asked me, “What if you disagree?” Then I either seek, through proper channels, to affect the change, or I will leave to find a church I can agree with. If I disagree with the church of which I am a part, it is dishonest to stay. If the church will not change, then I must. To insist that the church change for me is arrogant. The Church of the Nazarene is NOT a Reformed church, nor a Charismatic church. You may believe her wrong if you wish, but if you want a Reformed or Charismatic church, then that’s where you should be.

  • John Shingler Christa, way to go! You sold me! That’ll keep people! Where do I send your gold star for name brand endorsement? That was awesome! On my way out the door!
  • Manny SilvaThat playing card called “how many degrees do you have?” is played far too often. Some the most undiscerning folks I have seen in my denomination in the last four years have PHds in theology. It does not matter a chicken leg, necessarily, what degrees or trainings you have gone through.“I have more understanding than all my teachers, for thy testimonies are my meditation. Psalm 119:99

    I had a 99 average in N.T. Greek for two semesters. “So what”, is all you should say about it, if I tried to prove my superiority over anyone. At the same time I was getting these grades, I was goofing off and not serving the Lord well at all, in fact I was being very disobedient in my life. The question is, are you being obedient or not to God’s word, or are you creating your own fanciful ideas of Christianity, or are you jumping on the latest bandwagon of special “new” programs that have repeatedly been created supposedly to bring more people to Christ? Everything is the same under the sun, there is nothing new at all. Yet many people, some right here, keep ignoring facts and are blinded to the truth. I am not angry at the words said in Bruce’s article; I am concerned however for those who are refusing to look at things in light of scripture. As Tim says often, you have to make that decision yourself, and you don’t answer to me. We all answer to God someday, thus my concern for many of you who have decided not to look at what is really going on.

    It should not be a numbers game ever. The “game plan” is this: be faithful, preach the word of God, and let Him do the rest. Success is not to be measured in how many join the church or even profess to be saved. Success is being faithful to God, and not diverting from His paths- which have been established and never change. That’s why I reject the post-modernists and their thinking that we have to constantly shift our ideas and make new different ways to “attract” people to the church. The formula is always: be faithful, preach the word, and God will do the rest. Nothing else.

  • Paula Shannon Basnett Christa, thank you for the permission to leave. I have been in a Charismatic church that became more of a circus than a church. Their doctrine (or lack of) made me ill. And still does. I found the Nazarene church. I loved the structure and the scriptural foundation. I was there for 12 years; invested and loving it. I left the Nazarene church in March of this year for the very reasons stated here.
  • Kathy Frizzell If I may interject for clarification… Mr. Edwards, in your quote above from Wade’s comment – “the heavyhanded tactics of a vocal few who demonize those who seek open dialogue” – the phrase “vocal few” IS referring to the Concerned Nazarenes. There’s so much opinion and info flying thru this thread that it’s understandable things could get mixed up. :)
  • Joel TooleyI would like to invite any concerned Nazarene to join us in the trenches of humanity where we live today – where the average prostitute in Costa Rica (legalized prostitution) gets her start as an 8-12 year old girl forced into sex slavery.I would like to invite any concerned Nazarene to join us as we dig out the home of a brother, an Ordained Elder in the Church of the Nazarene whose home was nearly buried last week following a 7.6 earthquake.

    I would like to invite any concerned Nazarene to join us in Ciudad Juarez, Mexico where over 15,000 people have senselessly been murdered in a life of sin – to enter the home of an orphanage filled with children who have been abandoned to simply express love.

    I would like to invite any concerned Nazarene to join us on the island of Cuba where we actually have 1000’s of concerned Nazarenes…these Nazarenes are concerned whether or not their $14 per month income will cover their $40 a month cost of living. These concerned Nazarenes are concerned about how they can get Bibles into the hands of those who are daily receiving Christ into their hearts.

    I would like to invite any concerned Nazarene to join me in Nicaragua, Haiti, Uganda, China…even Illinois – to do as Bresee said, ” We studiously avoid performers. We seek no attraction, we want no attraction; by the grace of God we will have no attraction but the salvation of Jesus Christ. This is not a place to attract men to; it is a place to bring them and lay them down at the foot of the Cross, We play no part; we are here with the message of God. We deal squarely with dying men going to the judgment.”

    God help us.

  • J Merrick Gilroy Jr God help us all to be true to Him and to HIS WORD!!! We don’t need the spectacular, the performances, etc. We need HIM and His Word. margerete
  • David W. Edwards Sorry, Kathy. I got it backwards. There has been criticism of the BoGS for stifling dialog; I was just trying to point out that the CN didn’t really seem interested in dialog — if they don’t win, it must be that we’re not listening. I’ve heard what they’ve had to say. I disagree with what they say and with how they say it. As far as I’m concerned they have no credibility (and I expect to be on the receiving end of their ire for saying so). I guess you’ve finally “arrived” when the CN puts you on their list.
  • Kathy Frizzell LOL! No apology necessary. :) I just thought you might like knowing that the quote actually supported your viewpoint. :)
  • Manny SilvaAll that you just said Joel Tooley, is commendable. Permit me to invite you and others here, if you have not done so, to do what the Bereans were commended by Paul himself- and that was to check what we are saying, compare with the word of God- and then decide whether to reject it or believe it. That is also a necessary part of being a Christian. If scripture supports our positions, why would anyone reject them?God help us also- that we may not be so careless that we will accept anything that comes to us, even under the sponsorship of a General Superintendent himself- without checking the scriptures and seeing whether it is of God, or not. If not, we have no reasonable choice but to throw it out, and to also make our best efforts to correct those who are in error.

    The principles I stated here are based on scripture, and rejecting it is at your peril. If I am wrong in what I just said, then please correct me for my sake. I believe in the full inspiration and inerrancy of God’s word, and that is the starting point for me when trying to have any kind of serious dialogue with someone. If no one accepts the Bible as God;s word, written without error, there is no basis for discussion any longer.

    P.S. to David Edwards, I have no ire towards you for saying that we have no credibility; many others say the same thing Why should I be angry about that? It’s your opinion, albeit an unsubstantiated opinion. If you care as a Christian for us, you would truly do something loving and show us point by point where we are wrong, would you not? If not, well, maybe you don’t care about us.

  • Bruce Barnard My point in credentials/degrees is this — the CN’s have indicated they believe many, if not MOST, of our denominational leadership from the GS’s to DS’s to PASTORS to RELIGION FACULTY to COLLEGE PRESIDENTS are WRONG in their theology, teaching, directing, writing, preaching. This issue and the issues they raise are NOT two sides viewing the same accident from different directions. They are at polar opposites of theology, training, and leading. IF that’s true, and I believe it is, then I’m left with WHO do I believe — and at THAT POINT credentials, training, and preparation weigh heavily for me. I choose to stand on the shoulders of the great men and women who have come before my generation who I believe would NOT side with the CN’s.
  • John ShinglerSorry man but none of us are bullet proof and no movement founders either. You throw theology degrees into the mix and automatically establish a hierarchy of people and access to God. Several in this thread have done this and atleast two theology students in training.My faith became my own when two measily little laypeople showed me the genuine love of Christ when I was 14. No ordained minister. No rank. No pedigree. Just two people showing me something real.

    Your structures and ranks have no advantage over any denomination, non-denominarion, or Catholicism.

    Peter wasn’t ordained. In fact he was a redneck. But he could learn and listen from God. That’s good for me.

    I meant what I said about people that I don’t see eye to eye with. I am so far removed from the CN school its not funny. But I think after these denominational declarations and references to your Major Leaugue nazarene batting averages….I might be just as removed from you.

    NO DIFFERENT FROM ANY OTHER DENOMINATION.

    This is my assesment. Not talking individual brothers and sisters here. Don’t try that.

  • Manny SilvaJohn Shingler, you basically expressed my thoughts, probably better than what I was writing. I don’t presume you agree with everything about us, but your point is right on the nose regarding that question of degree or learning or preparation.There is an issue with that thinking Bruce- because what do you do with the many leaders and pastors who completely disagree with your “side.” If they have the same credentials and years of preparation and training, who determines who is on the right side? So then we have a stalemate, until… the answer is this question:

    What does HOLY SCRIPTURE say about all these things?

    Because God’s word trumps any number of years of preparation or any amount of degrees. I still hope that soon, either you or someone else can SPECIFICALLY address the things I pointed out about Karl Giberson, Thomas Oord, and others in my article.

    Do you believe that God does not know the future? DO you believe God learns from His mistakes? Do you believe that the Bible is God’s fully inspired and inerrant word (in ALL that it teaches and says, not just “in matters of salvation.”
    Are you okay with a seminary teaching the occultic practice of Celtic Spirituality? Do you agree or disagree with Dan Boone that “practicing the silence” is what is being encouraged by Psalm 546:10? Or that some of the Psalms were borrowed from pagan religions? Do you agree with Karl Giberson that much of the Bible is not really true, but just a story? Do you believe that if someone believes in the official teachings of the Roman Catholic Church, that they are saved?

    These and more are the questions that are never answered when we ask them. Instead, somehow, we are called every name in the book and labeled divisive for trying to get answers from our Generals and our college presidents. Christians ought to never take it for granted that their leaders are right about everything. Again, we must be Bereans.

  • Shanna Steiner I think Manny has a point. Someone needs to answer their questions about what those people are proclaiming. BUT I also believe that once they do answer, you have to listen without a preconceived idea of what they are trying to say. Hear their heart and how they got to their understanding. Ask your questions without the accusations. Be like Nicodemus that kept asking questions until he could understand Jesus heart. ADMIT that some things in the kingdom of God are harder to grasp than others. Allow Jesus to teach you the mysteries that are argued about.
  • John ShinglerThere is a third element in this I think. Not talking God or the devil either. Who’s collecting the tithes from both sides? Who is courting one position when the other’s back is turned?You know dang well people in the higher levels of this food chain are watching this thread or other people are reporting it back for scraps from the table.

  • Paula Shannon Basnett Excerpt from Mr. Silva’s letter – “You see, those who criticize us and call us “unloving” and “hateful” and “dividers”, have never really tried to correct us, as loving Christians ought to. . .
    So if you or your friends are to respond, please do so without meaningless, unsupported and baseless attacks.” Mr. Silva, all I think we on the “other side” want is the same.
  • Wade Brill Manny, the Scripture says “Do not forbid speaking in tongues”, “Do not quench the Spirit”, “Earnestly desire spiritual gits, and especially that you might prophesy”, “Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers and cast out demons”, etc. It also clearly shows us that the Pharisees possessed great and thorough knowledge of the Scriptures, yet so thoroughly missed it that they killed Jesus and ascribed the works of the Spirit to Satan. I’ll sit down with anyone and discuss the Scriptures, but I won’t accept Nazarene history and tradition being the end of the debate. Seems a guy named Luther helped free us from that a while back.
  • Stephen Healey May not be the best place for a question, but I knew nothing of the COTN debate until Bruce posted this. (I have seen your critiques, Manny, of Karl Giberson.) Anyway, what is the COTN position on Wesley’s quadrilateral? Scripture was primary for him, to be sure, by tradition, reason, and experience also mattered and were used theologically. How do the ‘Concerned’ view this? My question is not an invitation to debate, but just a question. Besides that, I wanted to say, Bruce, that I once took a class with your dad on New Testament personalities, and I also remember his strength in coming to the rescue one night when the Quincy Fire Department threatened to lock us out of the dorm. (The fire alarm kept going off, thr thought as pranks, but we found later to be steam…) Your dad showed me that one could combine strength, thoughtfulness, and generosity. You show me that, too, and I admire you.
  • Jerry Bohall Biblical Inerrancy – A response to why the COTN Article of Faith states IV. The Holy Scriptures
    4. We believe in the plenary inspiration of the Holy Scriptures, by which we understand the 66 books of the Old and New Testaments, given by divine inspiration, inerrantly revealing the will of God concerning us in all things necessary to our salvation, so that whatever is not contained therein is not to be enjoined as an article of faith. (Luke 24:44-47; John 10:35; 1 Corinthians 15:3-4; 2 Timothy 3:15-17; 1 Peter 1:10-12; 2 Peter 1:20-21) (Manual/2005-2009, Church of the Nazarene, Nazarene Publishing House, Kansas City, MO.)http://www.pointloma.edu/sites/default/files/filemanager/Wesleyan_Center/excellent-way.pdf
  • John Shingler Jerry, please translate that. It appears to be in tongues. What the heck does that mean?
  • John Shingler Does it say if it aint in the Bible dont do it?
  • Paula Shannon Basnett “inerrantly revealing the will of God concerning us in all things necessary to our salvation…” Does this mean that COTN believes that the Bible is inerrant ONLY as far as salvation is concerned? and what about the statements in the manual concerning tobacco use and alcohol? Is that addressed in the scriptures?
  • Wade Brill John, it means they limit “inerrancy” to what doctrines are necessary for salvation. In other words, they leave wiggle room on any doctrine outside that, and they don’t want to engage in fights over inconsistencies, scribal errors or anything else that “literal and total inerrancy” advocates would wrestle over.
  • Stephen Healey Thanks, Jerry. I know that part (I was once a Nazarene), but I mistyped the question. What is the Concerneds view of the quadrilateral? Some of their statements seem to imply that only the Bible can be used theologically, but I’m not sure that’s their intention. Hence the question… The Manual you cite can be taken in more than one way… Were it up to me (it isn’t), I would take it in a liberal and liberating way. Best wishes to all.
  • John Shingler That’s funny! Thanks Wade! That’s like me thinking the big 10 judges aren’t crooked as long as the Buckeyes win.
  • Paula Shannon Basnett Does it mean they can ignore and deny any scripture except what is “necessary for salvation?”
  • Jerry Bohall Paula – no it does not but there are some who think that is what is meant!
  • Wade Brill It’s more like they don’t want to commit themselves to arguments over some of the things I mentioned (e.g., was there one Gadarene demoniac or two, b/c Matthew and Mark differ).
  • Jerry Bohall I think another way to put it would be that the Bible is Inerrant but not Infallible. There are differences in the different books but none on them contradict anything necessary for salvation. It really does not matter to me regarding my salvation whether there were two or one Gadarene demoniac.
  • John ShinglerThe differences are akin to Matthew observing from the north-east and remembering…and John somewhere east… Hearing and seeing from arbitrary perspectives. In terms of direction and lessons learned. Nothing lost. Not even the distance of a hiccup. What would really be suspect is if all four gospels were word for word. Same as in courts…It would be rehearsed.God makes no mistakes. We make assumptions about His plays.

  • Paula Shannon Basnett Excerpt from C.S. Cowles letter – same document quoted by Jerry Bohall -
    “It is disingenuous to make grandiose claims about the inerrancy—and thereby the authority—of all Scripture, and then blatantly disregard great blocks of those same Scriptures as being `truth for today’ through interpretive sleight of hand.” http://www.pointloma.edu/sites/default/files/filemanager/Wesleyan_Center/excellent-way.pdf How does that fit in with the COTN and scriptures such as: Do not forbid speaking in tongues, Do not quench the Spirit, Earnestly desire spiritual gits, and especially that you might prophesy, Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse the lepers and cast out demons. Who exactly is C.S. Cowles??
  • Paula Shannon Basnett I just read this entire letter…I’m not the most intelligent person, but I’m not the most stupid either. Wow!! It’s talking in circles, circles, circles….really, talk about rhetoric….
  • Cindy BowerI have been following this post for several days and have found it very interesting reading. I have been a member of Nazarene denomination since Jan 2005. I am not going to try and argue doctrine or theology.I am writing simply to tell a story. I currently attend a church that is more charismatic than most Nazarene churches. In fact in many ways it is more charismatic that the charismatic church I grew up in.

    God has been moving in my life very dramatically in the last few years, often using many of the manifestations that have been declared false in previous posts. I have been an introvert and have lived a life of solitude most of my life. My life has been filled with much pain (that I will not take the time here to go into, I am a firm believer that introverts are not born, but are created. My mantra was always, “Stay low, stay invisible, stay alive. As many introverts I prefer to be non-vocal. So I am someone who doesn’t talk a lot. As someone who doesn’t talk a lot; I know “Who I say what to when.” It was often thru words of knowledge that I first started on my healing journey. Many times one of our pastors walk by me, stop, turn around and come back, make a statement and then go on his way. I would walk away thinking, “I never told you that. If fact I’ve never told anybody that.” I found that very annoying, but Jesus used it to get my attention. Was that mind reading? A false manifestation? I think not.

    I don’t particularly care for the falling down manifestation as any of my charismatic friends who pray with me can attest to. I have fallen for times than I care to think about. I have backed clear across the room to keep from falling down. But when Jesus comes and reveals himself in majesty and power, to fall at His feet is the only thing I can do. Jesus spoke one phrase in the garden and the entire guard that came to arrest him fell to the ground. John 18:6. John said he fell as though dead when he say Jesus in Rev 1:17. Ezekiel also wrote about falling to the ground Ezekiel 1:28.

    I grew up in a denomination that declared that tongues is proof of being filled with the Holy Spirit. I personally to not agree with that stand and do not pray in tongues at this time. I’ll admit I’m a bit confused about some of the things I experienced in that regard as a child. So I will not say much more about that one. It is one of the gifts of the Spirit and although I currently don’t pray that way, I’m not willing to throw it out, just because I don’t understand it.

    All I can say is that I am a different person since I came face to face with Jesus and His manifestations. Even the ones I don’t like a whole lot. A year ago Jesus told that my days of being an introvert were coming to and end. I wasn’t real happy about that. But then it’s not really about me. In the last couple years I’ve watched Jesus use me in spite of myself to change the lives of other people. Right now there is a small community of people, many of which are senior citizens, who are seeing Jesus for the first time in their lives. Isn’t that what it’s really all about? All because Jesus came and revealed Himself in ways that I wasn’t real comfortable with. Isn’t that what it’s really all about? Letting Jesus heal us, however He chooses to. And then go tell others what He has done.

    As I have read these posts, I get the impression, that they are not really about church doctrine, but about encountering God in a way that scares us. I know that we have to have church doctrines. I KNOW that there are counterfeit manifestations out there. But I also know that you can’t counterfeit something that isn’t real. When you ask Jesus to reveal Himself to you, He is not going to manifest Himself in a way that is false. I think it’s really sad that we forbid the real manifestations of Jesus because we are so afraid of the false. I think it’s really sad that we have more faith in the power of the lie than we do in the power of the Truth.

  • Paula Shannon Basnett Cindy, thank you…
  • Kathy Frizzell Thank you, Cindy… a powerful testimony. Your experience and journey with the Lord may be out of our box, but the testimony of a transformed life who is now demonstrating the love of Jesus to others can’t be denied.
  • Shanna Steiner Cindy! Oh yeah! Again it is an honor to know you and to read your chosen words!
  • Bruce Barnard Only those that know me well will appreciate this: but my DAD LIKED THIS NOTE!!!!!
  • Richard Mark Great discussions here. I can see both sides because they make great points here. I have an M-Div but who cares! I just want more of the Lord God in my life.
  • Paula Shannon Basnett Has anyone else had encounters with God like Cindy has had?
  • Shanna Steiner Paula: by me “liking” your question, i will say that i have a testimony!
  • John Shingler I have several but my introduction to the baptism of the Holy Spirit was not something I was looking for at the time. I don’t know how well it will be received here but I can promise you it predates this emergent whatever you call it and doesn’t fit in it (as I understand the phrase).
  • Gayle Jeanne Schwab Guthro I’m reminded of a saying, “Ignorance is bliss”. I’m feeling blissful right now. I have no idea what’s going on and I think I will stay that way. Liked the note tho Bruce. I don’t like bullies in any context.
  • Keith Davenport Here’s a look at the theological differences put forth by the Reformed Nazarene blog and the Church of the Nazarene: http://www.listeninginsideout.blogspot.com/2012/06/exclusive-review-of-reformed-nazarene.html
  • John Shingler“As some of my previous blogs have noted, Scripture is only significant to the extent to which is draws us to Christ. Jesus was the full revelation of God and the source of our salvation. Even if the Bible never existed, the truth of the salvation offered through the death and resurrection of Christ would still be a reality. Jesus Christ lived, died, and was resurrected within human history and the reality of this effects all of creation. The Reformed Nazarene blog is not about the good news that we can be forgiven and freed from sin, it’s about the fact that people aren’t living up to the propositions of Scripture. There is a major difference here.”Dude, how can you have one without the other??????????????

    I am neither a concerned nazarene or a manic nazarene but for you to pitch scriptural importance other than someone finding Christ? Are you serious? Scriptures most important role might be getting you to Christ but I would say its just as important to keep you with Him!

    Maybe I read you wrong but there’s an awful lot in there that you seem to be dismissing as fluff!

    If I read your position correctly and you are an accurate reflection of this enigmatic emergent church thing then I would say Manny is right in being concerned! And this is coming from a guy who believes in ALL THE GIFTS.

  • Keith DavenportJohn, sorry if I was unclear. This is what I mean:Jesus Christ is the full revelation of God and the means of our salvation. This must be the foundation of the Christian faith. The historical events of Jesus’ life, death, and resurrection are the means for our salvation and for our relationship with God. The reason the Bible is important is because it points us to this reality. For Christians, our faith must start with Christ because it is Christ, and not the Bible, that is the means of our salvation. However, if you read other posts on my blog you will clearly see, Scripture, by the work of the Holy Spirit, is the continuing witness to the revelation of God through Christ and the ways in which God has related with creation through time. I by no means am suggesting we dismiss it in any way, but simply we recognize Christ as the center of our faith and Scripture as significant because it testifies to the Gospel Story.

    Again, I apologize if this was not clear.

  • Keith Davenport Here is a more fully developed understanding of the role of Scripture: http://www.listeninginsideout.blogspot.com/2012/05/developing-scripture-picture.html
  • Wade Brill Hmmm. I just went to the CN FB page. Tim Wirth refused to respond to my comments about the full Gospel here, yet he rants about it on that page. I went to the Reformed Nazarenes website and posted comments on the article there pertaining to this open letter; guess I’ll wait to see if they are more open to discussion on their home turf.
  • John Shingler I think your post was deleted Wade.
  • Theron Flannery Bruce Benard, may I disagree agreeably? This new wave of doctrine infiltrating our church is not according to the Nazarene doctirne, and does not belong in our denomination. If they want to go charizmatic, let ‘em go to the denominations that practice that doctrine. It is not becoming to the Weslyan doctyrines of faith. Those who talk in unknown tongues claim to have a gift from the Holy Ghost that let’s them by pass the Mediatorship of Jesus Christ and talk directly to God the Father with their heavenly language. They have a gift, alright, but I am not sure it is from the Almighty God I am acquainted wtih.
  • Wade Brill Theron, I’d recommend you read Howard Snyder’s book The Divided Flame: Wesleyans and the Charismatic Renewal. What you stated does not line up with Wesley’s own statements.
  • Bruce Barnard Theron… sure, but I had nothing to do with the tongues talk…not my gift to the conversation…
  • Lonnie Swonger Actually, as a NAZARENE Christian Comedian, I am terribly frustrated.I have made fun of folks like the Un-Concious Nazarenes, but I just can not get on their hate list. I mean, I believe in my church, I believe in the hopes and joys of SOCIAL JUSTICE that Bresee preached for, I have had fun with the old by-laws of the church and everything, but…………..nothing. Maybe if I insult the Baptist church I can get listed. After all, so many of their members are Baptists. REALLY frustrating.
  • Manny Silva Wade, you need to read my About page. That will explain why I did not approve your comments. Nothing personal, but you tried to point to everything but scripture. And I could care less, with all due respect, to Greg Boyd’s writings, although I have read some of it.
    My authority is God and what He has given through His word directly to such uneducated men as me. Although I did pretty good with N.T. Greek.
  • David Showalter Its not a Nazarene sight but if you want to know what tongues were actually for, and why they are done away with now, this pastor is awesome http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/romans_new/12_06-08_pt3.htm

    www.bereanbiblechurch.org

    Berean Bible Church is located in Virginia Beach, Virginia, and is an independen…See More
  • Wade Brill David, I don’t know you, and I don’t want to repeat the threadjack of Bruce’s post that already occurred, but I have to challenge your assertion that this article is trustworthy. He makes many false and unsupported assumptions, but this egregious error stands out above all others: “I believe that “that which is perfect” refers to the maturity of the body of Christ at the rapture of the church, which happened at the Second Coming of Christ in AD 70; bringing the destruction of Old Covenant Israel and ushering in the New Heavens and New Earth,which closed the cannon.” That stance in no way accords with either Nazarene or Wesleyan doctrine, and it is foundational to his equally erroneous assertion that the gifts ended in the first century.
  • Wade Brill Manny, you proved that you are not interested in open dialogue. I asked about Boyd’s book because he DOES cite a number of Scriptures to bolster his point, but you clearly aren’t interested in engaging them. Asking those questions was just the start of the dialogue, but I can see that’s not your interest.
  • David Showalter Wade, I used to feel the same way but no longer. Scripture and history prove otherwise but I’m beyond feeling the need to prove what I know is true :)
  • Shanna Steiner Opening a dialogue with Manny would be difficult because it seems his main ability to make a point is by using scripture. BUT according to his own webpage/fb anyone that disagrees with his view point is a false teacher and is interpreting the scriptures in their own way…which i guess isnt allowed. Personally i find that funny because Parables are all through Jesus’s red letter words and those have to be interpreted each by the Holy Spirit individually.
  • Shanna Steiner I also find it odd that the CN page says that there are false prophets and false teachers.. well that too would show that thee are currently true prohpets and true teachers. And if prophecy is one of those gifts that “isnt around anymore” , that just doesnt add up
  • Wade Brill That’s ironic, David, since you cite history and Scripture in that very same sentence.
  • John Shingler For the Concerned Nazarenes I do have a question. What do you do with the testimonies of personal encounters with the Holy Spirit? What is your explanation for these? If it is not the Holy Spirit, what is the source? NAME THE SOURCE/SPIRIT OF WHO VISITED/DWELLS WITH THESE PEOPLE..
  • Shanna Steiner John I read on their no goofy zone blog page this morning that “Signs and wonders, miracles are not for the Christians who already believe, they accompanied the Gospel and were done in the presence of the unbelievers to have them believe in the message.” Which has some truth to it because Jesus told the masses that they only followed Him because He had filled their tummies. BUT with this idea already in place it seems to be putting us in the judging seat as to who already believes. Not giving any room for those that are working out their salvation. Those that may need a bigger measure of faith. The ones that have been so wounded that they need More of Jesus than someone else. When someone says you cant have anymore signs or wonders happen because you should already believe is putting themselves above the Father.
  • John Shingler Very cool Shanna! What I want is for them to name the source if they say it is not the Holy Spirit. I want them to commit to their conviction and spell out WHO the current manifestations come from.
  • John Shingler Come on guys….here is the opportunity to tell me who my father really is. I know you are thinking it. ;)
  • John ShinglerSounds like here that when Jesus is around things happen. Guess nothing happens when He isn’t? :Luke 7
    New International Version (NIV)
    The Faith of the Centurion

    7 When Jesus had finished saying all this to the people who were listening, he entered Capernaum. 2 There a centurion’s servant, whom his master valued highly, was sick and about to die. 3 The centurion heard of Jesus and sent some elders of the Jews to him, asking him to come and heal his servant. 4 When they came to Jesus, they pleaded earnestly with him, “This man deserves to have you do this, 5 because he loves our nation and has built our synagogue.” 6 So Jesus went with them.

    He was not far from the house when the centurion sent friends to say to him: “Lord, don’t trouble yourself, for I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. 7 That is why I did not even consider myself worthy to come to you. But say the word, and my servant will be healed. 8 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”

    9 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed at him, and turning to the crowd following him, he said, “I tell you, I have not found such great faith even in Israel.” 10 Then the men who had been sent returned to the house and found the servant well.

    Jesus Raises a Widow’s Son

    11 Soon afterward, Jesus went to a town called Nain, and his disciples and a large crowd went along with him. 12 As he approached the town gate, a dead person was being carried out—the only son of his mother, and she was a widow. And a large crowd from the town was with her. 13 When the Lord saw her, his heart went out to her and he said, “Don’t cry.”

    14 Then he went up and touched the bier they were carrying him on, and the bearers stood still. He said, “Young man, I say to you, get up!” 15 The dead man sat up and began to talk, and Jesus gave him back to his mother.

    16 They were all filled with awe and praised God. “A great prophet has appeared among us,” they said. “God has come to help his people.” 17 This news about Jesus spread throughout Judea and the surrounding country.

    Jesus and John the Baptist

    18 John’s disciples told him about all these things. Calling two of them, 19 he sent them to the Lord to ask, “Are you the one who is to come, or should we expect someone else?”

    20 When the men came to Jesus, they said, “John the Baptist sent us to you to ask, ‘Are you the one who is to come, or should we expect someone else?’”

    21 At that very time Jesus cured many who had diseases, sicknesses and evil spirits, and gave sight to many who were blind. 22 So he replied to the messengers, “Go back and report to John what you have seen and heard: The blind receive sight, the lame walk, those who have leprosy[a] are cleansed, the deaf hear, the dead are raised, and the good news is proclaimed to the poor. 23 Blessed is anyone who does not stumble on account of me.”

  • Bruce Barnard A quote from the CN site: “I would love to find more Wesleyan Holiness churches, particularly, that still worship like Independent Fundamentalist Baptist churches.” … while he goes on to explain that (mostly about the hymns and preaching style) I’m struck by this question — when has the COTN EVER been confused for Independent Fundamentalist Baptist churches? (not poking the bear here, I’d just seriously like to know cuz I’ve been in one since before I was born and I don’t remember this)
  • Steve Malcolm Well, fundamentalism is a theological innovation of the 1920s, so we can’t have been in 1908.
  • Paula Shannon Basnett Bruce, did Steve miss the point of your question?
  • Manny SilvaI’m sorry, Shanna… did I miss my own words in my blog that lead you to the following conclusion?”BUT according to his own webpage/fb anyone that disagrees with his view point is a false teacher and is interpreting the scriptures in their own way…which i guess isn’t allowed.”

    If you would not mind quoting me exactly so as to point out how you arrived at this, which I can tell you is not true.

    To clarify for you, I define false teacher by the following, as well as other scripture:

    Galatians 1:6-10
    I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned!

    Anyone preaching another gospel is a false teacher. That is the biblical definition. I have no other. If my teaching does not align with scripture, I would be a false teacher. Not even the emergents at NazNet have called me a false teacher, as far as I know, to this day.

    Those who teach that Adam and Eve did not exist, are false teachers. Those who teach that God does not know the future, or makes mistakes, are false teachers. Those who teach that the Bible is a human product, rather than the divinely inspired word of God spoken through inspired men of God, are false teachers. Those who teach that sitting in silence without thought, is real prayer and communication with God, are false teachers.

    These are the ones we are to be concerned with today. Yet we find the COTN merrily going along its way, happy to have increases in membership and money (although that has gone down also), instead of being faithful to the word of God. And the most unfaithful have been the corrupt teachers as well as the corrupt shepherds behind the pulpit who are propagating all this nonsense of mysticism and practicing the silence and “experience God” and holding hands with apostate groups and the Roman Catholic Church.

    The COTN, and especially its leaders, is in need of one thing more than anything today: repentance.

  • Paula Shannon Basnett Manny, I completely agree with your statement concerning the corrupt shepherds. In fact, I agree with most of what you just said, except that I believe we ALL need to come to repent.
  • Manny SilvaSome more than others, I would say, Paula. We should always be open to the Holy Spirit and the conviction He brings to our hearts for any sin, any bit of disobedience. However, the repentance I am particularly calling for is to repent from what has been a consistent, daily, weekly and year after year support for those who are bringing great harm to our students in the universities, and in our churches. And the greatest responsibility has fallen on the generals, the university presidents and the leaders in our denomination who are supposed to lead. They are leading the church in the wrong direction, thus the great need to repent. They will answer even more to God since they have taken the responsibility to shepherd the church of Jesus Christ. And… this includes the many silent pastors who may not be participating in all this, but who do not have the courage to stand up against this apostasy. They will be judged also.Heb 10:31 “It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.”

  • John Shingler“. And… this includes the many silent pastors who may not be participating in all this, but who do not have the courage to stand up against this apostasy. They will be judged also.”Can’t argue against this.

  • Paula Shannon Basnett What about the corrupt ones that practice their non-stance and not dealing with the issues in an unbiblical manner? Instead of facing the hard issues and hashing them out, they actively look for ways to get rid problems in deceitful ways?
  • John Shingler That would be called evil, cowardly, bullying…..little punks. Honestly, putting the emergent vs. CN debate on a temporary hold here…there is a third element that only looks at church as employment that needs to be kept. Folks that, I am inclined to believe, believe in absolutely nothing other than preseving their own butts. God or no God they are looking for that paycheck. I truly believe that is why the generals, an astonishingly misappropriated title, are not coming in on this issue. The flock could be made up of turnips but as long as those turnips equal revenue I don’t think they give a flying crap. Be concerned, be emergent, be without God…just show me your money.
  • Manny Silva I can’t argue against that also. Money and holding on to a job, or maybe a desire for moving up to a D.S. position or other, seems to be the main motivations for either their actions, or lack thereof.
  • John Shingler My son has a DS. Its a game system too.
  • Greg Farra Well, if some of thepeople on the current CN page are representative of the group, infant baptism is unscriptural, possibly women’s ordination and you can hold to reformed theology and still be Nazarene. Fail.
  • Bob Hunter Manny-none of us have called you a false teacher other than Ben Burch. We do not feel it is our place to single people out such as yourself and condemn them as heretics. We’ll let God figure that one out. We do, however, think your judgments are misguided and your interpretation of scripture is extremely narrow and perplexing. Moreover, you do not give anyone the benefit of the doubt. According to Matthew 7:1-2 We are not to judge. For with that judgment you will be judged. Manny, I don’t think you could withstand the measure of judgment you administer to others. Your interpretations of scripture have been repeatedly confronted by upstanding Church leaders and you dismiss them all. I recall many conversations where you could not adequately answer to basic exegetical considerations of scripture. Yet, somehow you are the expert and no one else is? In spite of all of this, people still afford you the benefit of the doubt and refrain from calling you a false teacher and heretic. Sadly, these good men that disagree with you have not been given the slightest bit of charity. Rather, they are insulted by being told they promote a false gospel. Very sad turn of events and your comments reveal a sad reality.
  • Ben Burch That’s right, I did say it.
  • Manny Silva Bob Hunter, your license to preach, if you have one, should be revoked! In the middle of all this judging you just did of me, you claim we are not to judge. And you don’t even see it!
    And again, the continual personal attacks with no substantiation at all.Examples of your judging me: “your judgments are misguided”, interpretation of scripture is narrow and perplexing”. on and on….

    I think I’ll take Tim‘s advice and let you keep talking.

  • Manny SilvaAnd the right answer of course is this:7 “Judge not, that you be not judged. 2 For with what judgment you judge, you will be judged; and with the measure you use, it will be measured back to you. 3 And why do you look at the speck in your brother’s eye, but do not consider the plank in your own eye? 4 Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me remove the speck from your eye’; and look, a plank is in your own eye? 5 Hypocrite! First remove the plank from your own eye, and then you will see clearly to remove the speck from your brother’s eye. Mat 7:1-5

    and then later Jesus says this, in the same chapter:

    15 “Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

    Of course, how can we beware of false prophets UNLESS we are able to judge (discern) the false, right?

    And then Jesus astonishingly says this in John 7:24:

    “Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.”

    For those who have not read this, here is a pretty thorough exposition on the matter of judging. Bob refuses to hear the word of God, but perhaps some others here will consider it:

    http://reformednazarene.wordpress.com/judge-not/

  • Manny Silva And listen to what you say, Bob. You don’t judge me by the word of God… you say “we think”. Of course it’s what YOU think, that’s always what it is. I know very well that when you and your friends from NazNet oppose us, it is always what ‘YOU THINK”, not what the inspired word of God says. Which is the very reason we don’t try to go around in circles along with you- but we will certainly rebuke and correct you as needed.
  • Greg Farra Manny is infant baptism,women’s ordination acceptable practices? Some of your CN people think not. Have you corrected them? Have you corrected CNers who think reformed theology is okay within the COTN?
  • John Shingler This whole nazarene spectrum is tripping me out. ON the CN end, and church docs, scripture is being amended or given expiration dates on gifts, and on the other emergent end people are saying scripture is only valid as it leads you to Jesus. The spokespersons, declared or implied from reading here, are all sounding scary close to being cults. Elevating church docs to the status of scripture and dismissing some of the purposes of scripture????
  • John Shingler I am confused by the term doctrine as it applies to churches. Webster says its someting that is taught. So if you have the Bible at a church, why do denominations add additional documents?
  • Paula Shannon Basnett How can false prohets be exposed unless they’re judged?
  • Paula Shannon Basnett Agreed, John!! Both sides are scary. Should there be a “middle of the road” Nazarene? I’m thinking possibly…
  • John Shingler Occupy NAZ!!!!
  • Bruce Barnard For a Wesleyan who accepts and views scripture through the lens of experience, reason, and logic, it seems reasonable that really smart folks will come to different interpretations of what any particular passage of scripture “might” be saying. To be a person that demands everyone arrive at the same conclusion seems to me to be the height of arrogance, and a good sign of a false teacher. After all, that’s what the Pharisees did.
  • Bruce Barnard And Manny, you use the “judge” passages, but what do you do with Romans 14:19, “make every effort to do what leads to peace and to mutual edification.” … can the CN’s do BOTH – judge and edify?
  • Bob Hunter Manny-Are you implying that false teachers are in the Church of the Nazarene? Am I one of them? If so, I would like to know upon what basis you make that claim. All Nazarene elders are examined by a credential board and must demonstrate adherence to the articles of faith which are clearly orthodox Christian beliefs. They must testify to a life transforming experience with Jesus including sanctification. Moreover, each Nazarene elder is expected to exhibit a call that is confirmed by others that demonstrates fruitfulness in ministry. According to Matthew 7:15-20, fruitfulness is the key identifier in determining whether or not a person is a false prophet or not. The CotN has a mechanism for that activity on each District where the D.S. and ultimately the G.S. have authority. Are you usurping that system with your own judgments? Who gave you the right? Why can’t you give these men the benefit of the doubt and call them brothers in Christ instead of false teachers? They extend to you the benefit of the doubt, why can’t you do the same? I don’t see where Matthew 7 supports rogue judgments. Yes, we must judge, but we must not be judgmental and censorious. Our judgments and discernment should be tempered with the golden rule (Matthew 7:12). I have deep disagreements with you Manny over many things. But I will not claim you are a false teacher, it is not my place. I am just going to assume that you are a brother in Christ who follows the same Jesus I do. Judging your life and ministry is for your pastor to determine (if you are a member and submit to his/her authority). And it is ultimately up to God.
  • John Shingler Where is the expiration date on different gifts in the Bible? How does the Nazarene church get past 1 Corinthians as well as the multiple functions of tongues and their importance? There is more than one use and function from what I read. Its not always the Acts manifestation from what I see in the Bible. I’m only getting hung up on tongues because it is forbidden by the Nazarene denomination. I’m really struggling with knowing why. I know azuza street is a big mile marker for cotn and pentacostals but who said the gifts actually disappeared prior to this? Aren’t we giving azuza too much credit? Its a very big world with Christians all over the place. What if, somewhere in India there is a group of people who have been speaking in tongues for over a thousand years but didn’t draft up articles of faith to prove it was good or bad?
  • Andrew Magnuson After reading almost all of these posts, I have wondered something. How many of us have prayed first before we have replied or posted. Just saying…
  • Chasbro Rizzo To reduce the Bible to a cosmic tract that leads us to Jesus and then after that its an “agapic” free for all of interpretation is simplistic. We do not worship the bible but we do “love” the bible.
  • Chasbro Rizzo Yo Bro John..”Scripture is only significant to the extent to which is draws us to Christ.” There are so many disoriented evangelicals due to the fact they define that which “draws” us to Christ differently. Might as well be Quaker’s waiting for “move.”
  • Bob Hunter Andrew-actually don’t assume that we have not prayed. Many of us have prayed over this issue and our hearts are heavy for leaders who have been called out and maligned with these accusations. I think it is only natural to be outraged. Many of the folks that have been called false teachers and promoters of heresy have children and church members who hold them in high regard. It’s frankly disturbing when they are attacked by people they don’t even know who have never sat under their teachings or witnessed their impact of their ministry.
  • Chasbro Rizzo Soon as we limit God’s word being “less significant” we open ourselves up to all kinds of lunacy. Couch it with all the “agapic” Jesus rah,rah rhetoric you wish….violate scripture you violate Christ.
  • Andrew Magnuson Bob Hunter, I understand. It was simply just a thought I had after reading most of the posts. I agree that it is “disturbing” when people are attacked. However, should we not be Christ-like in all situations (not that I have perfected this). Their is a lot of passion in these posts. I was simply getting the feeling that people might be writing back without stopping and taking a prayerful look at their reply, instead of writing back with pure emotion.
  • Chasbro Rizzo John …..tongues are languages not gibberish. If there is such a thing as an ecstatic utterance I Cor 14 gives strict guidelines. If nobody can “interpret” you must pray silently. I agree that many Christians get vitriolic over certain issues. That is sad. I see NO ultra-dispensational cessation of any gift. We also know God varies when and how He works…
  • Chasbro Rizzo Good stuff Bob.
  • Manny SilvaI have named false teachers in the COTN before, Bob Hunter. One of them for instance is Mike King. He promotes contemplative spirituality. I’m sure you have read it all. He also promotes the blasphemous Wildgoose Festival. However, i don’t expect you to agree that he is a false teacher, or even that what he teaches and promotes is unbiblical. I don’t expect that you would ever be able to recognize and name a false teacher. The Holy Spirit, through God’s word, reveals to us the truth in His word- and thus we are able to use God’s word as the measuring stick to determine what is true or false. You emergents love uncertainty, and therefore create this argument that hey “it depends on how someone looks at it.”Anyway, I pray that at least one more person viewing this will realize what this man teaches is an abomination, and folks like him need to be removed from their post. Yet, he should be prayed for as well, that he may repent.

    http://reformednazarene.wordpress.com/2012/06/25/should-any-nazarene-leader-be-associated-with-wildgoose/

    http://reformednazarene.wordpress.com/2011/06/29/mike-king-and-friends-leading-youth-to-spiritual-death/

    http://reformednazarene.wordpress.com/2012/05/07/two-prominent-nazarene-leaders-promote-blasphemous-festival/

    You continued with many errors in your comments again. Perhaps I’ll try to address those later, but I’m not planning on a long debate with you.

  • Bill Paladino In this stream, some have suggested deferring theological judgements on false teachers to district boards and professors with advanced degrees. But weren’t the Bereans in Acts 17 called more noble because they tested Paul’s teachings against scripture, and isn’t it members of the church (those called of God) given the instructions to contend for the faith once for all delivered to the saints? Individual study and interpretation are at the heart of Protestantism. Many people with advance degrees have been great theologians in the church, but were also responsible for false teachings as well (too numerous to get into here). Considering to that scripture tells us that false teachers will spring up in the church, we need to be both respectful as to not falsely accuse but discerning for the sake of the gospel as well, as Paul was to the Galatian church.
  • Bruce Barnard I have been one to suggest that IF there is disagreement about a certain teaching, or perspective, or theological debate, and I were being asked MY opinion, I would defer to the polity of the church in which I serve..in the COTN, there is a structure in place to guard against false teachings — GS, DS, pastor, church board, lay ministers, elders, deacons, Board of Ministry, college presidents, college Board of Trustees, etc…now, do they always get it right – of course not…BUT in the case of the Concerned Nazarenes one would be led to believe that their group (or maybe just a few leaders in that group) are able to discern false teachings and that almost NONE of our current COTN leaders/elders are able to discern it…if you read their very long list of heretics, false teachers, and apostates (of which I am now counted as one), and if they are correct in their discernment, then EVERYONE should run from the COTN…
  • Bill Paladino Bruce, I understand what you are saying and agree with you. I have read their list – I think they are right on some and off base on others (their tone aside, of course), but ultimately it is up to the individual to exercise a degree of discernment on their own.
  • Ron Pankey Manny, I have a suggestion for the very few actual members of the Church of the Nazarene in the concerned Nazarene group. In 1956 a group of pastors, elders and churches no longer agreed with the COTN, felt the COTN has become too liberal, and they left and formed a denomination called the Bible Missionary Church. Maybe this is an option you and your followers should consider being the rest of the COTN is now in apostate, according to your view. Just saying
  • Bob Hunter What Bruce said! And may I add, that Manny and his cohorts have every right to individually exercise judgments on the basis of scripture and write us off as false teachers and promoters of heresy. That is their choice (though I think it is misguided). They DO NOT have the right to do this on behalf of the entire denomination. They are biblically out of line and not conducting themselves in an orderly manner. Paul spoke very clearly to the Corinthians about orderliness and proper use of authority. The CN’s have no regard for the mechanism that we have in place. They undermine the proper channels of authority and openly mock the process. For Manny to say my ordination should be revoked is wrong. He is no such position of authority and won’t be. So they can make all the individual judgements they want regarding who is true and who is false. So what? Go ahead. But when you launch a public campaign and usurp the authorities that God has established, you are biblically unjustified in doing so and your claims will be summarily dismissed (which they are).
  • John Shingler Please clarify “authorities God has established.”
  • Tim Wirth Bob stated” But when you launch a public campaign and usurp the authorities that God has established, you are biblically unjustified in doing so and your claims will be summarily dismissed (which they are).” If our claims are so summarily dismissed why keep talking about us? Keep talking Bob. Thanks
  • Paula Shannon Basnett Please refer to John’s question above…
  • Bob Hunter You are actually right Tim Wirth, every one should ignore you guys (many do anyway). Darn it, I knew I was wasting my time!
  • Manny SilvaNotice how when I specify that Mike King is a false teacher, after Bob Hunter asked for me to name one, and explain why, Bob and his friends do not come to the defense of the false teacher. That’s interesting. Is any ordained pastor or licensed minister out there comfortable enough to read the specific facts I have posted about Mike King, and then defend his actions as a youth leader and seminary professor?Is anyone willing to biblicly defend the occultic course (Celtic Spirituality) that Doug Hardy (another false teacher) teaches at NTS?

    http://reformednazarene.wordpress.com/2010/11/29/occult-coming-to-nazarene-theological-seminary/

    I also would like Mr. Barnard to show me where we called him an apostate, or even hinted that he is one. I do believe that he is in serious error for sure.

    Again, accusations are always thrown our way, but never substantiated.

  • Terra Frederick I’m gonna be super real: Things like this scare us younger Christians into belonging to a group who lets gossip, bullying, negativity, and hatred rule them. We are all saved, redeemed and set apart by Christ. Church should allow us a place to be ourselves, to allow hardships, struggles, and temptations to be laid down in front of others who are dealing with the same things. Cooperate worship is about working on ourselves (And only ourselves) and our relationships with Christ. The wonderful thing about church is differing viewpoints. So what if you don’t like someone’s views? Christ died for them just as he did for you. Love them like he loves you, and then maybe you’ll notice the things that used to bug you, don’t anymore. Things like this make young people (Teens and 20 year olds) fear the church, turn away from it, and no longer feel a “need” for religion. This is a major problem, and why can’t we just be real about loving our neighbor instead of loving them or disowning them. Its things like this that make my call to become a pastor in the Nazarene church, scary. People need the church, but they need a church that’s real, and Christ centered. Love your neighbor as yourself. And if you don’t like that they have to say, keep your opinions to yourself, and pray that your heart be changed. The church should be about unity, not about tearing apart.
  • Bruce Barnard Quotes about me on the CN FB page after I posted this Open Letter: “…this guy in his rant proves again he cannot rightly divide the Word of God;” “…the guy comes across as confused, willfully biased, prejudiced, and bitter.”; “…there is only ONE group telling the truth — there are the CONCERNEDS, or there are those like Bruce Barnard…” … [not much hinting there]
  • Paula Shannon Basnett Terra, it makes “older” seasoned Christians feel the same way
  • Manny SilvaSo Bruce, no one called you an apostate with any of those words you quoted. None of these comments come close to asserting that you are are an apostate. I believe you are misguided in your beliefs however.On the other hand, I don’t need to repeat the ugly words used in your post or by some of your friends like Karl Giberson.

  • Manny SilvaTo Terra: Jesus Himself said:True unity, Terra, is not about ignoring willful disobedience and living in sin, nor is it about ignoring unsound doctrine as well.

  • Randy Calhoun This really makes me glad I have switched to “non-denominational.”
  • Manny SilvaMy note was cutoff, so here is the entirety of it:Jesus Himself said:

    “Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division.” Lk 12:51
    “Think not that I am come to send peace on earth: I came not to send peace, but a sword.” Matt. 10:34

    True unity is not about covering up willful disobedience, nor is it about ignoring unsound doctrine as well. That is not unity, that is chaos, that is compromise. When a church fails to stand for the truth, in exchange for “unity” at any cost, then it fails to be a faithful church. It fails to truly be in unity.

    We are commanded to separate from those who preach false doctrine.

    “Take no part in the unfruitful works of darkness, but instead expose them.” Eph 5:11
    “Everyone who goes on ahead and does not abide in the teaching of Christ, does not have God. Whoever abides in the teaching has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your house or give him any greeting, for whoever greets him takes part in his wicked works.” 2 John 1:9-11
    “Now we command you, brothers, in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you keep away from any brother who is walking in idleness and not in accord with the tradition that you received from us.” 2 Thess. 3:6

    And those who would argue that only the leaders of the church can determine what is false teaching in the church, I ask the question: what if those leaders are teaching falsely? What then? And what if as suggested, we exhaust all the “proper channels” and the leaders keep propagating false doctrines which are harming our fellow Christians? What then?

  • Bruce Barnard Manny – to say one cannot rightly divide the Word of God would be similar to calling one a heretic, or false teacher, or other labels that bullies use…you can try and draw lines around meaning, but your comment above said “no one hase event hinted” at that…my sentence read, “heretics, false teachers, or apostates”…you focus on one word to try make your case…at least I apologized for using the word THUG when someone asked me about it…and then you do exactly what many CN’s post about on your page — when you can’t escape the truth, you pivot to another topic (in your case another target)…
  • David Pettigrew I read this today – “beware of those who are never wrong”. Pretty much sums up everything you need to know about the CNs.
  • Verne Haskell How sad is it that so many have reduced their sense of mission to the level of sitting in judgment of other believers? I suspect I don’t pass muster with the “Concerned,” and I know I don’t with the “Reformed,” so I’m just going to continue focusing on the the Word and on God’s calling in my life. As an older pastor, I don’t have time to waste with busybodies. The Great Commission gives me more than enough to do!
  • John Shingler Please clarify “authorities God has established.”. This is a bold statement.
  • Manny Silva Really, Verne? How would you deal with false teaching that came into your church?
  • Tim Wirth Hi Pete you stated” The reason people keep talking about the CN’s is because we do not want your limited views on what is Nazarene and what isn’t Nazarene to be the only opinion people get to see and hear.” Thats a general statement of course because you don’t speak for all Nazarenes. Some people do speak of us in a positive note as well. Like typical liberals you seek to cast a negative light on people who believe in the scriptures and the fundamentals of the Christian faith. Your views are just that. Your views. PS Bob when can we expect to see those videos of yours on U Tube? I will make sure they get posted along side of our own videos.
  • Bob Hunter Tim-I might bless you with another YouTube when you and Manny take down the video of General Superintendent Diehl that you posted without his personal consent and permission. That was an act of arrogance, as you both took a short video clip out of context and without personally asking Dr. Diehl. Your group was responsible for posting it on YouTube and used it as an attack piece to further your own hateful agenda against the Church of the Nazarene. This is totally disrespectful to a man who has given so much to the Church and had good intentions, but by his own admission…perhaps mistakingly spoke to the issue. So there you go my friend. Also, I would point the arrogance of your group inserting yourself into Nazarene history on Wikipedia. Such audacious claims are unprecedented and unheard of. This is why I call it a suckerpunch. Only bullies suckerpunch. Real men respect their elders which you and Manny did not do when you posted a video of Dr. Diehl. You should take it down and apologize ASAP.
  • Verne Haskell Manny, I would use biblical instruction, of course! That’s very different than shooting darts at other pastors etc.
  • Manny SilvaI did not know you were the spokesman for Dr. Diehl, Bob. Please specify what was out of context.And I’m still waiting for your thoughts in response to your challenge. I did name a false teacher as you requested. Can you defend Mike King’s specific activities as I mentioned? Can anyone here do that?

  • Manny SilvaShooting darts, Verne?Hmmm, “biblical instruction.” Okay, and if a Sunday School teacher refused to take that instruction, and wanted to continue to teach, let’s say, “practicing the silence” to his class, or that God makes mistakes, or some other false teaching… then what would you do? If he refused to stop spreading false doctrine to the people you are responsible for as a shepherd pf the church, then what? Would you turn a blind eye for the sake of “unity?”

    I really would like to know how some pastors here would deal with false teaching within their own church. What is the biblical procedure for that. Or are there some folks here who will tolerate ANYTHING?

  • Verne Haskell Manny, Within a local church, a pastor must deal with such issues. Nothing I wrote suggested otherwise! I also understand that all believers do not see “eye to eye.” The Church of the Nazarene has a hierarchy to oversee its pastors etc. That is appropriate. However, citing superficial “evidence” upon which to assault the reputations of godly people is misleading and damaging. I have “reformed” Nazarenes suggesting Arminianism is false doctrine and Concerned Nazarenes who pounce on words they find suspect, then generalize their interpretations into full scale judgments. That is deeply wrong and of no positive value! ……………………. Going from what I wrote to the suggestion that I might tolerate “anything” is irresponsible at best.
  • Bob Hunter I don’t know of Mike King, I can only speak to the credibility of Nazarene leaders and the Districts that carry out the responsibility of licensing and ordaining men and women. I was not appointed to license, ordain or call for a minister’s credentials (apparently you have that right…I don’t). I trust the God-ordained authorities in our Church to exercise sound judgment. It is not my place. I may have individual judgments, but they are not relevant. To usurp their authority and undermine their efforts is simply arrogant and you have done so. If you feel we are hopelessly apostate, fine! The scriptures advise you to dust your feet off and move on, but you won’t. Why not leave us to God? Turn us over to the Lord? For some reason you won’t, you don’t trust God to take care of His Church. Even when one of your own family members pleaded with you on Naznet to end this ruthless campaign, you stubbornly refused and threatened march on. I may be naive, but I trust that God will cleanse His Church so I don’t have to call people false teachers and heretics, it’s not my job, the credentialing board takes care of it. Therefore, I will let the process play out and trust God. In the meantime, I will refrain from calling you a false teacher and heretic. I do maintain that you are misguided and you have arrogantly usurped Church authority. Very sad…
  • Tim Wirth Bob I have a lot of respect for Dr Diehl and his views. Im not sure what you are trying to imply. As far as I know Dr Diehl never asked us personally to take down the video. And again with the hateful agenda rhetoric? Grow up and maybe perhaps others should look in the mirror before they use that term. The CN group has been at the receiving end of hatefulness ever seen the start of this group. From the disdain Jesse Middendorf showed others in our group at his son Jon’s class at GA from the comments over at Naz Net and other places. Sometimes when folks like you say that you should really go back and read your own comments. Funny how liberals constantly state tolerance but show no tolerance against others who have a different agenda than their own. Utter hypocrites .We didnt use Dr Deihl’s video to do anything but to speak for itself and what he said. We have never claimed or implied he is part of our group. His comments stand on their own. The only reason you fear the video is not because you respect Dr Diehl but because it tears at your very agenda. You use hateful rhetoric every time you talk about our group -every time. But yet you call us out on the same thing.And you know I liked to use your video’s because they prove our point better than we can at times. You like to sensationalize our agenda and lie about it being hateful and all we do as you do that is get more orders for our DVD’s. Guess we should thank you for that. Plus the real problem here is that the wisdom of scripture escapes you and you seldom use Gods Word.Instead when you use the name of Jesus you use it as some sort of punch line or snappy comeback at your attempt to try to be relevant(Jesus Jukes). But you no longer pastor so I guess thats not an issue.
  • Tim Wirth Problem is some people here want us to ask questions but they oppose the hard questions we ask like what about Mike King? Duck and dodge and then spit at us. Nice.
  • Bruce Barnard If someone is teaching counter to the COTN doctrine (NOT counter to what the CN’s THINK our doctrine should be), that teacher would be accountable to the pastor; the pastor is accountable to both the church board and the DS; in cases where the pastor is the problem, the District Advisory Board and DS would be consulted; if you now have a teacher being allowed to teach falsely, and the church leadership is involved, and the DS and Advisory Board are all complicit, then you have the GS. So if there is false teaching going on at the volume the CN’s would have us believe, then this thing is a conspiracy the size of which would eclipse the pedophile scandals of the Catholic church. We have a polity in place – it may not work every time, but it simply CANNOT be as bad as the CN’s want everyone to believe. Once the CN’s admit there are men/women they have identified as false teachers that in fact may NOT be that, then a conversation might begin. Until then, and as long as they claim the right to be right, I’m afraid there isn’t much conversation going on.
  • Manny Silva That reminds me, Tim, of the ugly disrespect they showed towards Dr. Orville Jenkins, Jr, when they read his paper. They will tear down anyone, anyone at all. It’s not just little guys like you and me, Tim. They will go after anyone who does not agree with the emergent church agenda.
  • Verne Haskell By the way, gentlemen, my sermon outlines are based clearly and faithfully on scripture. In my church you would never have any doubt as to where I got my fundamental points from. You might not always agree with what I say, but my commitment to the Word is always in evidence. I do listen to fresh ideas and filter through them, but never intentionally preach anything that I cannot support with the Bible. I know countless Nazarene pastors who share that commitment. Are we problem free? Of course not! Are we generally on track? Every indication that I can see says, “Yes!” Is, as was stated on the CDR distributed at General Assembly, threatened more by emergent thought than anything else? No!
  • Verne Haskell Pardon me, Is the Church of the Nazarene threatened more …
  • Bob Hunter Wrong Manny, very wrong. Many of the men you criticize pastor churches were people of various backgrounds and traditions are represented. Nazarenes are welcoming people. We work with all kinds and our theology is a theology of love. Sometimes I had to love people as a pastor that held VERY different views. It was never my job to straighten everyone out. I had to trust the Holy Spirit. Our congregations are more diverse than ever. We try our best to raise the banner of Jesus and the Church of Nazarene over all of God’s children. To do otherwise, would be to go the way of sectarianism and create a sub-culture of Nazarene elites. Bresee started with a diverse group of rag tag Christians in a predominately poor part of L.A. Today, we have to decide if we are going to give into the narrow agenda of a few or will we enlarge the tent and proclaim the Holiness Gospel to all of God’s children living in the 21st Century. I think the majority have spoken. Sadly, there are always a few who get left behind by their own choice. So you are very wrong Manny about the so called “emergent” agenda. In fact, I doubt anyone in my Church could explain emergent! It’s foreign to them, but they could tell you about Jesus. Jesus is what we are about~ !
  • Greg Farra I left my former denomination because of the direction it was heading, and I couldn’t change it. If you can’t follow the denominational process to bring charges, why not leave? Manny had a storyon his blog that included the accusation that a pastor was coming out. The headline in the Christian Post was ‘I’m the gayest person I know” from a pastor. If he’d read the story it was not about a homosexual pastor but the guy was trying to reclaim the word. I left a message on his blog about the mistake and Manny took it off but never ran a correction as far as I could tell. I ‘ve looked at the CN Facebook page and seen that infant baptism and women’s ordination are not biblical; one member stated that the churches in Columbus are all emergent; and reformed theology is okay. What kind of Nazarene group is that? All churches in Columbus emergent? How would someone know that?
  • John Shingler Please clarify ” I trust the God-ordained authorities in our Church to exercise sound judgment”. Another bold statement.
  • John Shingler“the pastor is accountable to both the church board and the DS; in cases where the pastor is the problem, the District Advisory Board and DS would be consulted; if you now have a teacher being allowed to teach falsely, and the church leadership is involved, and the DS and Advisory Board are all complicit, then you have the GS.”What differentiation of any depth is there between what you describe and the catholic church?

    -Who does the GS answer to? Is he/she your pope? How does someone become a DS or GS?

  • Bruce Barnard Well, first there are 6 GS’s…oversight is through a General Board….and ultimately the General Assembly that gathers every 4 years…the odds that ALL 6 could be heretics at the same time leading the denomination into an apostasy is astronomically high…as I have said many times just on this post (which, by the way, is the LONGEST post I’ve seen that didn’t involve some celebrity or politician!) — it’s beyond imagination that the Assembly would elect men and women who have somehow created some vast coverup (including ALL GS’s, most of the DS’s, all of the college presidents, and most of the college and seminary faculty, not to mention thousands of pastors worldwide) that the CN’s have somehow been able to discern…
  • John ShinglerThankyou for the response Bruce. I promise you I am not on either end of the spectrum in this conversation. I am trying to understand the foundations that are either supporting or eroding this collective group.But I have seen some things in the last five years that lead me to believe there is a very protective and somewhat unapproachable element to your power structures. From a layperson’s perspective.

  • Greg Farra John, when people join a church (or any other organization, club or religion), they usually have to pledge to abide by the rules. If people don’t like the structure of the COTN, they don’t have to stay. In fact, if someone can’t support (like myself and the ELCA), they should leave and find something more to their liking. No, our GS’s are not our ‘Popes’. I’m not sure what you meant by it. If you’re not a Nazarene, or one that has no idea how we elect people, a combination of clergy and laypeople elect them at district and General Assemblies.
  • John Shingler Thankyou as well Greg. No, I am not Nazarene, though for several years the denomination received my tithe. Until this conversation I was not aware of the breadth of differences within. And there is a great deal of language in the documents of the church that I did not know and it appears I am not alone in this.
  • Bruce Barnard John – I like to say I was Nazarene before I was born (3rd Generation)…I can say with all honesty that our Board of General’s and former GS’s are some of the most approachable men and women of integrity I’ve ever known…several of them have their own FB pages, and are quite the social media communicators…their pages aren’t BLOCKED, they allow free flowing conversation (as long as it’s respectful), you can ask questions of them directly, and they report from their various posts around the globe…ditto on our DS’s, our pastors, evangelists, Global Ministry center staff, college presidents, faculty of our colleges and seminary…HOWEVER, on many of their FB pages are posts from the CN’s that are disturbing and quite frankly outside the bounds of decency and grace…hence, my use of the word “bullies” and the intent behind my open letter…I hope that helps…(and I don’t think you’ve been out of bounds in your questions!)
  • Greg Farra John, there’s a lot of Nazarenes who don’t know what we believe! We are ignorant of our history. I didn’t know a lot about the COTN when I joined but I knew that we believed in the Triune God. I like our teachings on holiness, which were way different than my Lutheran ones. I also like the emphasis on the love of God. Sometimes we want to make love just another attribute of God (like wrath, justice,etc.), but God is love (1 John). Our view of God is one that loves us so much that he sent his only Son into the world.
  • Bob Hunter John-the Church of the Nazarene follows Jesus the Nazarene. That is why we exist. We are a Jesus-Church. We do not idolize and worship the Bible (and peoples’ narrow interpretation of it). We worship the Christ of the Bible. Our belief in the Bible is that it contains all things necessary for salvation and we look to the Bible as a reliable guide to faith and practice. We do not hold the Bible to modern standards of inerrancy since that category didn’t exist when the Bible writers were inspired by the Holy Spirit to record the story of salvation. The Concerned Nazarenes will force the inerrancy issue in a very militant way (like an unyielding fundamentalists). For them, it is an all or nothing proposition; you either accept their version of inerrancy or you don’t value scripture at all. What is sad is that many of us have given our lives to the study, teaching and preaching of scripture, yet we are accused of neglecting scripture’s authority. It makes no sense. Why would I read the Bible, teach it, preach it and practice it if I did believe in its trustworthiness? But more importantly, is the Jesus issue. While the CN’s blame us for not using enough scripture. I would also point out that they appear to be so in love with scripture that Jesus has suffered nary a mention on their site! Jesus Deficit Disorder! J.D.D. This is exactly where the pharisees erred, they were so tied to the book and to oral tradition, they missed the Messiah. Lord help us not to miss Jesus. As Rob Staples used to say, The Bible is the manger in which Christ is laid. The Christ child is our King! It’s all about Jesus folks, not silly little debates over who is really a Nazarene and who is not. God help us get back to Jesus.
  • Tim Wirth Again Bob with your clever little titles. Keep in mind as you throw rocks at us and accuse us of everything and try to show us the door you are no longer a pastor (care to share why-just so others know I already asked). So you set yourself up as defender of the Nazarene faith and denomination even though for a time you attended a Foursquare church a denomination founded by Aimme Semple Mcpherson. Jesus is the Word the Logos this is plainly stated in the gospel of John. We dont worship the Bible or scripture we just trust it and its authority.You paint it and us in such a negative way. Plaining dumb about the Emergent church issue Bob is laughable and again I state we do what we do because of people like you.The Bible is the manger where Jesus laid? Ok I know who Rob is and is that supposed to sound deep? Hmmn You compare us to the pharisees and I understand people accuse any and all folks who have discernment with the same accusation. You are more like the Greeks who Paul talked about. Paul relied on Gods wisdom in scripture not in human wisdom as the Greeks did. 1 Corth 2:1-71 Corinthians 2:1-8
    King James Version (KJV)
    2 And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
    2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
    3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
    4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man’s wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
    5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.
    6 Howbeit we speak wisdom among them that are perfect: yet not the wisdom of this world, nor of the princes of this world, that come to nought:
    7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: And yes Bob I am saying you do not understand or comprehend scripture. And to accuse us of not loving Jesus or our sites not mentioning Jesus is not only a lie it goes to the fact that you dont understand scripture and I question if you know the real Jesus instead of someone you have made into your own image.
  • Manny SilvaBob Hunter said: “let’s get back to Jesus, that it’s all about Jesus.” Yes, and here is what God’s word says:He that has my commandments, and keeps them, he it is that loves me: and he that loves me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him. John 14:21

  • Manny SilvaFolks, I gave Bob Hunter a name when he asked me who is a false teacher in the COTN. Why is he not able or willing to defend the specific actions and ideology of Mike King that I have written about? Is there a pastor or layperson here who will stand up for Mike King and his involvement (along with Rev Salguerro) with Wildgoose and its “Beer and Hymn” parties and all the promotion of homosexuality and non-Christian religions? Let’s get it on the record, instead of continual comments that we are hateful and divisive and supposedly not reflecting “Nazarene” values.Is Mike King an example for Nazarenes to follow? How far does Mike King and Gabriel Salguerro have to go before any of you say, enough is enough?

    This is just one example of the serious matters we are concerned about- many Nazarenes in fact. Not just a small tiny group. It’s many longtime Nazarenes, young and old, who are very upset at the direction the COTN has taken. Yet in all this time, no one seems to be willing to go out publicly and defend such actions by Mike King and others who are spreading contemplative mysticism and ecumenicalism throughout the church.

  • Tim Wirth Peoples narrow interpretation? Hmmn Matthew 7:13-14
    New King James Version (NKJV)
    The Narrow Way13 “Enter by the narrow gate; for wide is the gate and broad is the way that leads to destruction, and there are many who go in by it. 14 Because[a] narrow is the gate and difficult is the way which leads to life, and there are few who find it. The way we know about Jesus is through His Word thats pretty plain and Jesus said the way is narrow so thanks for the compliment. Folks like Brian McLaren mention Jesus all the time but Brian does not know jesus. At least not the jesus revealed in scripture. Brian himself admits and encourages to go off the map (the map being scripture). That sure is the easy way that was you can make and mold Jesus into your image. You can make Him into what you want. But arent we supposed to be conformed to Gods image? Isnt that what sanctification is all about? I think you may have it backward Bob. Jesus is not conformed into the culture. The culture conforms to Christ or it perishes. You can see this not only through scripture but through history.

  • Tammy Young Smith and this is why people don’t want to be a part of church or be a christian…. seeing all the people bashing going on makes me wonder why I joined a Naz church . Oh wait yes I remember in 2009 I had my first real encourter with my Lord, since that day I have not been the same. Maybe some of you could use an encourter with Him, then you to will know. This walk is not all about who is smarter or who knows my scripture. It is knowing Jesus in and upclose personal way. Being filled to overflowing with his love to spill onto everyone you know and they will want to know Him too. I find not love on this page but much bashing. I can only imagine how this hurts of Father in heaven. Yes there are truth’s on this page but for the most part I am seeing that people just want to be right. :(
  • Tim Wirth Bob and your accusation that on our sites we do not mention Jesus thats a flat out lie. Google Concerned Nazarene and Jesus and this can quickly be disproved. Funny how you can just make things up and then state them as fact. But yet you claim to know the truth of jesus. I would have to question what Jesus you follow.Not sure what you are talking about here that we dont talk about Jesus.We talk about Jesus and His one true gospel all the time.What do you mean by”I would also point out that they appear to be so in love with scripture that Jesus has suffered nary a mention on their site!” Thats just a straight up lie Bob
  • Paula Shannon Basnett http://studylight.org/dic/bed/view.cgi?number=T621
    Maybe an earlier post was correct:
    Sadducees Josephus lists the Sadducees as one of the three sects/groups of Jewish “philosophy” (Ant18.1.2 [11]; cf. 13.5.9 [293]). His first historical reference says John Hyrcanus (135-105 b.c.) came under their influence after his break with the Pharisees. Josephus describes them as argumentative (Ant18.1.4 [16]), “boorish” and “rude” to both each other and aliens (War2.9.14 [166]), few in number but including “men of the highest standing” (Ant18.1.4 [17]).In the centuries after the destruction of Jerusalem by the Babylonians (586 b.c.), the Pharisees compiled and transmitted orally a body of traditional interpretations, adaptations, and additions to Scripture that they believed to be of divine origin. These included ways of applying the Law to various situations—expansion and prescriptions regarding a wide range of levitical ceremonies and regulations.

    Religiously, the Sadducees were literal in handling the Old Testament Law and resisted the “new” ideas and traditions of the Pharisees. Politically and socially, they were open to rapprochement with Hellenistic (Greek) culture and the Roman political system. The Sadducees were essentially secularists, a result of their exclusion of God (“Fate”) from human affairs and their conviction that humans can expect nothing beyond this life. In general it seems the Sadducees supported those interpretations and procedures that enhanced the prestige, power, and financial benefit of the priestly temple cult and the aristocracy.
    Sadducees – Baker’s Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology on StudyLight.org

    studylight.org

    Baker’s Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology is linked to Torrey’s New To…See More
  • Tim Wirth And Bob know one wants to talk about the hack job you guys did on Orville Jenkins at do you? But I guess its ok that you guys call people out that disagree with you. But when we do it suddenly its not ok? Wow
  • Tammy Young Smith If you have not love, you are like a sounding GONG!
  • Bob Hunter Manny-I don’t know of Mike King, never heard of him. What he does as a minister does not impact me in any way. I just don’t know the guy at all. Never attended Wild Goose, don’t endorse the event. I don’t know any Nazarenes that attend. I just don’t have enough time to get into that. So you are asking me to pass judgement on someone I don’t know, never met and critique a festival that I never attended and will not attend. I do trust that if this person is Nazarene Minister that he will submit to the authority of the District where he is ordained and adhere to the Nazarene articles of faith.
  • Bob Hunter Tim-Never was involved in hack jobs on Jenkins. I know he wrote a letter at one point that I disagreed with. I never once made any comments one way or the other. I wasn’t involved with anyone that did personally. When you claim “you guys” I don’t know what you are talking about. I’m not responsible for the reaction of others. As for the content of Manny’s blog. I would disagree with you. There are tons of scripture references, but the site lacks a positive proclamation of the gospel. When Manny runs hit piece after hit piece it hardly leaves room for Jesus and His love. I don’t think anyone non-Christian or Christian reading would feel compelled by Jesus’ love after reading anything you write. I think you guys love Jesus, I’m sure you think what you are doing is right, but in the end your campaign fails the basic test of Christian love. The Disciples of Jesus are known for the their love for one another (John 13:35). It might be worth while to consider what Tammy Young Smith mentions above. She has a point ya know.
  • Paula Shannon Basnett 122.1. Pastors and congregations shall seek a clear understanding
    of each others’ expectations and sincerely follow
    biblical principles to resolve differences in a spirit of reconcil-
    LOCAL GOVERNMENT 79
    iation within the church. Biblical principles for resolving differences
    in Matthew 18:15-20 and Galatians 6:1-5 include:
    1. Seek to resolve differences by discussing them face-toface.
    2. If face-to-face discussion fails to bring resolution, seek
    the assistance of one or two others in resolving the differences.
    3. Bring the differences to the church board only after
    face-to-face discussion and small-group efforts fail.
    4. Christians are obligated to work at resolving differences
    in a spirit of love, acceptance, and forgiveness.
  • Bob Hunter In all fairness to Manny and his blog, I did a word usage analysis on a sampling of five blog entries. This included over 7,000 words of text which is about the size of a typical book chapter. Here is the breakdown on the number of times the word JESUS & LOVE appear: • 2 times-direct quote from Dallas Willard (but he was being attacked for suggesting Jesus can save anyone).
    • 5 times by Lighthouse trails exposing Dallas Willard for preaching a false gospel.
    • 1-time in a direct quote attributed to Dan Bohi
    • 1-time by Manny Silva rebutting Dan Bohi’s quote
    • 2-times by Lighthouse trails suggesting Ravi Zacharis has the wrong Jesus
    • 1-time quoting someone else who disagreed with the CNs
    • 1-time rebutting someone else’s claim about Jesus (suggesting they had another Jesus)
    • 8-other times in direct association with the following vocabulary: Repent, judge, judgment or righteousness.Total: 21 times, but not once did Jesus appear in the context of a positive proclamation of the gospel. All references were in the context of denouncing others. Moreover, other samplings of the site revealed some attempt to present Christ, but many were authored by Lighthouse trails or Way Life and not by Manny Silva in any positive way.

    Love is only mentioned once and it is in negative light: “and the love of many will grow cold.”

  • Joe Vinette It sounds like the “Concerned Nazarene’s” have opened Pandora’s box. They are a religious effort to divide and attack. This doesn’t sound like it fits with the great commission’s agenda at all. Jesus said make disciples not dividers. I am not sure John Wesley, Wesleyan Theology or Jesus would support such a group of legalistic thugs/bullies who are starting a movement that has proven to distract God’s people from loving their neighbor and surrendering their hearts to God. Loving your neighbor doesn’t mean putting them into hermeneutical submission moves until they say Uncle. The world does enough damage to the word of God we don’t need people who claim to be Christians to cast unfair judgements pervert the scripture anymore. It’s time that grace becomes of utmost importance as you receive it, show it, and preach it.
  • Tim Wirth Bob again you dont tell the truth.Bob you stated ” I wasn’t involved with anyone that did personally.” But yet you were part of the conversation and saying that you were not involved personally with anyone who did is just not the truth because you were involved with the thread and those who blasted Orville.Im sure you will try to spin this some way as to your involvment. Yiu still were not truthful. Here is your comment from the string over on Naz Net you were part of the conversation as well as liking peoples posts. Of course Dennis Bratcher and John Brinkly were the most caustic but you were still part of the conversatio. Funny how people forget what they were administrators of or what there likes were. Anyway here was your comment”Re: Letter from Orville Jenkins Jr.
    Originally Posted by Kevin Rector
    This thread began as a discussion of a letter circulated by a District Superintendent. It has degenerated into a thread about Manny and Tim. Manny and Tim have shown themselves to have a caustic spirit in line with the great Inquisition. They are un-credentialed, have no authority in the church, have established themselves as the supreme arbiters of truth and theology, have consistently shown no willingness to generously or graciously engage their opponents and perceived opponents, perpetually exhibit malicious guilt-by-associate, do a lot of name calling, and in Tim’s case aren’t even Nazarene. I think it is unfruitful to engage them directly and I think we should just disengage.Orville Jenkins Jr. on the other hand is a District Superintendent. He may be (and most likely is) very much in the minority of District Superintendents and Nazarenes with his views (let’s not forget that the proposed changes to make Article 4 more fundamentalist was soundly defeated). But he deserves our respect by virtue of his position and is categorically different than Manny and Tim.

    Let’s stop talking about Manny and Tim and engage the actual topic of the thread.
    Kevin,

    As one who has taken his share of bruises from Tim & Manny, I totally agree. It is tempting to respond, but I am refraining from doing so and I am encouraging others to disengage completely. I know Rich has a great heart and sincerely desires constructive dialog, but it is not possible. Jesus talked about dusting our feet off, exercising the sacrament of failure. Lets face it, we have tried to engage Tim & Manny in a constructive way and we have failed. (I personally take responsibility for some of the failure…I said things in ways that didn’t always help the dialog) I don’t know anyone who has succeeded though, do you? So what makes us think that the 264th time (or attempt) is going to be any different? I just think it is time to give it up, and stun them with our silence.

  • Tim Wirth Please Bob keep on talking.Thanks Tim
  • Bob Hunter Well Tim, much to do about nothing. I said I read the Jenkins letter and disagreed with it, I stated that up front. My response to Kevin was that I agreed with his analysis of You and Manny. In large part I was not commenting over the Orville Jenkins flap. I was in agreement that you and Manny are un-credentialed and without authority. So the substance of my response was the CNs. Even still, the so called “blast” is directed toward you all. The criticisms of Jenkins are couched in respectful language: “He deserves our respect by virtue of his position…” So we have a total non-story here…but you are right, I forgot all about commenting. Oh well, not ashamed one bit to say that I respectfully disagreed with Jenkins. I stand by my comments and it is true, we just have let you guys go and disengage. In fact, I go to work tomorrow teaching a full class of students in Spiritual Formation so I won’t be around much.
  • Tim Wirth Figured you would spin that Bob yes I need to leave the conversation as well other things to do. Thanks again for talking and being the poster boy for why we do what we do. I do appreciate your comments more than you could know.
  • Joe Vinette Tim, you seem really bitter. What is the real issue here? You have some explaining to do mister!
  • Tim Wirth Not bitter at all just tired of folks lying. The conversation is going in circles. So no point in carrying it on. No need of any explaining myself because Im not under anyones authority here. All the facts are out in the open those that have ears to hear will get it. Im repeating myself but its funny how liberals are portrayed (even here) as the tolerant and loving. But when folks have a different point of view other than the liberal one there is no tolerance or love. And folks cant seem to see that going on here. Look at the things that have been said about others not even a part of our group like Orville Jenkins JR. They did a real hack job on him at Naz Net. But yet will sign grace and peace when they offer none. People need to judge who is telling the truth according to scripture and then come to their own conclusions. Doesnt really matter what the opposition states about me. What matters here is truth. And the only absolute truth we have is scripture. So judge with that. And with that I simply have to say je te dis adieux
  • Bruce Barnard (is that sign off in tongues?) … it’s ironic to me that someone who has mastered the art of hatchet jobs would blame people who had no involvement in whatever you’re talking about…the Pharisees were masters of hatchet jobs, using “only the truth of scripture” all the way to the cross…anyone reading the CN Facebook page, your blog, or Manny’s couldn’t help but feel they’ve been chopped to pieces…and if the “Grace & Peace” is a reference to my sign off, I truly meant I wished nothing BUT grace and peace to you…I’m sorry that offends you…
  • Jerry Bohall Can someone help me here? What is the “established Nazarene doctrine on the Bible”?
  • Joe Vinette Tim…I see what has happened. There is nothing wrong with speaking in tongues even on Facebook as long as it’s your prayer language is between you and God or there is someone to interpret. If that is the case…I send my blessings to you that God continues to help you define your spiritual gifts and your ability to speak in tongues. It helps me to understand that at least you honor your Pentecostal Roots in your concerned Nazarene membership but you have to lay off that very harmful stinging legalism…the world already thinks we are this way we don’t need to make them more right. Stay Gracious Brother!
  • Greg Farra Tim, Bob was ‘on loan’ from the COTN to the Foursquare denomination as a pastor. And just because someone is not pastoring a church at this time does not mean they are not ministering. Bob is a credentialed minister in good standing with the COTN. If you know of some reason that Bob, myself, or any other credentialed minister is teaching things contrary to Nazarene doctrine, there is a process in place to do that. If you’re not willing to work within the denomination, why not do what I did with the ELCA? Shake the dust off your feet and find one more in line with your beliefs?
  • Manny SilvaYes, as Tim said, I also am tired of the lying thrown at us, but I am also tired of waiting for someone to give a biblical defense in support of those who I have mentioned as being false teachers. It’s not going to happen, I know that now. There is no defense of the indefensible.Bob Hunter goes off on bunny trails with his research and the diversionary, meaningless stats he gathered from my blog posts apparently- , while not being willing to comment on Mike King and the Wildgoose Festival, because he says he never heard of both. All he has to do is read the factual information I presented in my posts and give me his learned opinion, but he won’t. He has time I guess to gather this great stats on how many times Jesus is mentioned, but no time to investigate my claims of an ordained elder in the church promoting a blasphemous festival- or of a seminary professor who is leading many youth down the path of contemplative mysticism- and organized the Wildgoose Festival! So now I know more clearly Bob’s priorities- drum up silly stats to divert from the bigger problem- false teachings in the church.
    Sorry, not following you down that trail.

    And yet, the many defenders of Gabriel Salguerro also have not commented on Wildgoose, even though he promoted it two years on a row.

    Bob and his friends will never be able to identify such false teachers, because they are enamored with and and part of the same ideology. That ideology is explained simply this way: just about anything goes for them, as long as you proclaim the name of Jesus, then everything is alright. They cannot bear to say a word of criticism about any of their heroes, no matter how off the biblical track (not Nazarene track) they go. It’s very sad.

    In fact, I am posting something soon on Rob Bell, one of the heroes of NazNet and the emergent crowd, a hero of many Nazarene pastors, including my former pastor. I recall Bell spoke at a pastor’s seminar at Point Loma last year. Can anyone here, particularly any pastor, comment on what Rob Bell says here in this video in response to a question about homosexuality? I believe this is important because of the fact that he has been welcomed by at least some of the leaders of the Nazarene denomination.

    http://apprising.org/2012/07/26/rob-bell-comes-out-gay-affirming/

  • Tim Wirth Pete -Utilizando la frase Vaya Con Dios para hacerte parecer más santo que me agradable. Peter es un hombre santo.See Translation
  • Tim Wirth Agree with Manny the conversation is now going in circles but the bottom line is that people know where we stand and where the opposition stand. Let them search the scriptures and decide who is telling the truth. Thanks again though Bruce for letting us make our case here. And now it really is time to exit. I do pray that the Holy Spirit opens the eyes of those who are deceived and most of all He opens the deceived eyes to the true Jesus revealed in scripture The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel.”
    – Mark 1:15
    “By this gospel you are saved…that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures, that he was buried, that he was raised on the third day according to the Scriptures, and that he appeared to Peter, and then to the Twelve. After that, he appeared to more than five hundred of the brothers at the same time…”
    – 1 Cor. 15:2-6 You and I are undeserving. I say this not to put you down, but to reveal everyone’s deplorable position before a perfect and just God. What is the consequence of what we have done? What punishment does the guilt of our injustices merit?The Bible reveals to us with painful clarity that in God’s court, the penalty for sin is death (Romans 6:23). Eternal death, or eternal separation from God, for any sin whatsoever. Worse punishment for worse sins (Luke 12:47-48), but zero access to God’s presence (heaven) for anything less than perfection. We have all sinned and fallen short of the glory of God (Romans 3:23)Now, brothers, I know that you acted in ignorance, as did your leaders. But this is how God fulfilled what he had foretold through all the prophets, saying that his Christ would suffer. Repent, then, and turn to God, so that your sins may be wiped out, that times of refreshing may come from the Lord, – Acts 3:17-19 If you repent, then it was your penalty for sin that Jesus bore on that cross. As Isaiah prophecied more than six hundred years before Christ’s atoning act (53:5-6):
    But he was pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities; the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed. We all, like sheep, have gone astray, each of us has turned to his own way; and the Lord has laid on him the iniquity of us all.If Jesus paid for your sins, God’s wrath over your sin debt no longer remains. In exchange for the payment of Jesus’ life, the righteous worth of Jesus’ life is now extended to you, and you are saved from eternal separation from the Lord. Because Jesus himself was without sin, he rose again from the dead to be with God the Father; providing us with utter certainty of who he was. Jesus now reigns from heaven with all authority given to him; his salvation work accomplished, his life for yours, your spiritual debt paid in full.
    If your sin debt was fully paid by Jesus, then the life you’re living now belongs to him. You are a new creation, a continuation of Jesus Christ’s life; you are no longer your own. The words you choose, the actions you take, the people you touch: it should all be as Christ. Jesus-the-hand in you-the-glove. To the extent you’re living the life of Christ, you demonstrate the degree to which you have really surrendered your life to him. Christ’s essential commission for you: ‘I’ll finish your life; you finish mine’.
    If you are living Christ’s life, not only is he in you, but the Bible says you are in him. That might be how, in the spiritual sense, the moment you believe, your old self effectively died back on that cross two thousand years ago. Consider every core aspect about you as crucified; your pride, your selfishness, your lusts, every sinful aspect of your soul – now all dead to the world, but alive to Jesus Christ.
    Not being physically dead, of course, and still subject to sin until you are, God commands you to be a living sacrifice. Every day you are to put to death what resembles your old self and grow closer to God. Filling yourself with his Holy Spirit whom Jesus has sent to help each and every believer, you are to persevere over the inclination to sin, and thereby grow towards the goal of living in perfect and continual communion with the Father.Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved.
    – Acts 4:12

  • Bruce Barnard Hey Tim — you wrote, “Bruce is an emergent church pastor…”…not sure how you define “emergent”, but I suspect it involves false teachings…so, my friend, where is my false “teaching”…(not what groups I like on FB, or who I have quotes from, or what folks I hang around with)…since you guys put the challenge out all the time, DEFINE “emergent”, DEFINE “false teaching” in that context, and PROVE my false “teaching”…
  • Rick Moore I am thrilled that my flock in central Texas is completely removed from all of this. We simply gather each Sunday, sing praises to our God, witness the moving of the Spirit, and dig deep into His word. Isn’t that what it is all about?
  • Eddie Rester These are the type of comments that make me sad for the Body of Christ: “bottom line is that people know where WE stand and where the OPPOSITION stand. Let THEM search the scriptures and decide who is telling the truth.” Rather than let God deal with whatever true heresy is (which is the position in Acts), we feel like we have to be hand of God and stomp out the opposition. Which means we’re wasting our energy and focus on fighting with each other. Which is exactly what the enemy wants. Sigh . . . . Let me say clearly: Bruce Barnard is a true man of God and when I need a pastor he’s one of the ones I turn to. And if we ever had the chance to work together in a church I’d jump at the chance.
  • Eddie Rester Seems funny to me that people are still fighting the “emergent” label when even the people who led the “emergent movement” (or were identified as leaders) no longer use the term or think about it anymore. “Quixotic journey” is the right term. They’re fighting dragons that don’t exist.
  • Manny Silva Is no one interested in defending Rob Bell or any of the other false teachers I mentioned? What are your thoughts, Bruce, on Rob Bell’s video where he becomes yet another “evangelical” to affirm “gay Christianity?” Is that a good thing for Nazarenes? Should Rob Bell continue to be invited to speak at pastor’s seminars and at our colleges? Is he still okay with those of you here who liked Rob Bell before I gave this link to you? What are your thoughts on him? Anyone?
  • Bruce Barnard think, generally speaking, it’s okay for our Nazarene universities to present ideas before our students helping them to think critically…they are not robotic institutions that need to crank out “only Nazarenes”…in fact, many of those schools have a higher percentage of non-Nazarenes attending…is your argument that ONLY speakers at Nazarene colleges should conform to your very narrow reading of scripture…?…do they all have to hold the CN’s perspective on atonement, or grace, or the rapture…?…is there a document somewhere that has the doctrine that is “CN APPROVED” (and saying “scripture” is a cop out since we KNOW, or at least Wesleyans believe! it is oaky to use reason and experience to interpret and explain scripture)…does every speaker and employee HAVE to hold to FULL BIBLICAL INERRANCY or they are heretics in the CN’S eyes?…not everyone will agree with every speaker on our college campuses, EVEN those that claim a Wesleyan heritage…but we continue to expand the minds of students as they seek knowledge and the necessary skills to think for themselves…your list of “any teachers” is so long that defending only one isn’t really your point…(but I’m sure you’ll say I’m dodging which is an emergent tactic so go ahead)…my question to Tim can be asked of you — please point to a specific place in my teaching where you feel I’m an emergent false teacher…(Tim’s quote about me on your page)…
  • Bruce Barnard Tim Wirth – again, here is your quote: “Funny when I just read Manny’s last comment on Emergent pastor Bruce Barnards FB page this came to mind.” … POINT to my false teaching in what you call the “emergent” movement…
  • Manny Silva Quick response to you Bruce- only short breaks today at work:
    You said: “generally speaking, it’s okay for our Nazarene universities to present ideas before our students helping them to think critically…they are not robotic institutions that need to crank out “only Nazarenes”Problem is, they are indoctrinated ONLY. There is NO room for immediate and robust debate and disagreement. I know… I’ve seen it many times, as well as from testimony of other Nazarenes, including students and parents. Are they all crazy too?

    They are not taught to distinguish false from truth.

  • Bruce Barnard I’m a product of a Nazarene university; my wife is; my two children are…I would say that has not been our experience…
  • Bob Hunter Manny-completely wrong. I am currently an educator at a former Baptist University (yes, they put up with me and keep me busy). We have the same venues of discussion, disagreements and debates. One of Grand Canyon’s values is to develop critical thinkers. What is a critical thinker? They are those who work to master clarity and logic in thought by asking questions and pursuing knowledge to avoid delusion and blind acceptance of ideas, to reduce vulnerability, and to work to find solutions rather than dwell on problems.
    2 Timothy 2:15 “Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a workman who does not need to be ashamed and who correctly handles the word of truth.” The problem with your blog is that it only finds problems as my analysis demonstrates. You frequently block other opinions and censor dissenting voices. Interesting, how you have not been censored on this thread.
  • Paula Shannon Basnett Manny, do you believe everything, 100%, that your pastor preaches?
  • John Shingler Paula has a very good reason for her question. Because there are very rotten and vile things occuring within your ranks that you are all holding somewhat high. Things not mentioned so far. Not concerned or emergent. Everyone here would find them wrong.
  • John Shingler Your ranks held high… Not the travesties.
  • John Shingler Answer please, do you believe everything they say?
  • Manny Silva “Completely wrong”, Mr. Hunter says, that speakers are not indoctrinating our students. We should take his word for it?
    Oh, and as I state on my About page, I screen clearly deceptive teaching that could lead someone astray. I also omit statements that keep rambling on and on an don, without any semblance of biblical support. This is obviously a page that Rev Barnard is allowing debate, so I appreciate that. But I have made it clear and in the open why I censor some comments. Sorry you do not like that, but that is my main reason.Okay, here is just one example of indoctrination of the worst kind, aided with the help of one of the false teachers in the Nazarene denomination, Dr. Tom Oord. (Yes, I said it, he is a false teacher) He and other professors helped bring in Jay McDaniel who promotes universalism, and claims that non-Christians can go to heaven, and other horrendous false claims. He went absolutely unchallenged at this presentation at NNU, which was absolutely disgusting from a Christian viewpoint. What would have been good was to have someone vigorously debate him head on and contradict his false lies about what is a Christian or not. But it never came close to happening.

    To those who are watching this thread and are open to what I am saying, here is my original post to view the entire 1 hour lecture:

    http://reformednazarene.wordpress.com/2010/01/21/false-teaching-welcomed-at-northwest-nazarene-university/

    For a 10 minute highlight of his lecture on YouTube I made:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l9GgRy741A8

  • Manny SilvaPaula, if there are any problems at my current church, I would address them privately with the pastor first. So far so good (we have an interim pastor at the moment). But if he or a permanent pastor started introducing emergent garbage into the church, I know that there are several other men in my fellowship group who would not put up with it.By the way, I went through “proper channels” as I tried very hard to do in my previous church almost four years ago. I went through the right channels then, and all I got for it was a public accusation of lying and spreading propaganda, forcing me and my family to leave, and causing great harm which still is having an affect.

  • Manny Silva By the way, Bob, Jeremiah and others like him (not putting myself on his level) pretty much had one ministry: bringing bad news to the people. That’s all he did. My ministry is mainly focused in bringing bad news, in bringing warnings to the people. We are to do that as faithful believers in Jesus, who commanded us to watch out for the wolves and to protect the flock.
    Yet even so, when I speak at the men’s fellowship every 6 weeks or so, I always end with an exhortation and encouragement to keep the faith, to always be in God’s word, and to continue to trust God in the midst of all this apostasy.I am not ashamed of what I do, because I know that God has led me into my ministry for His purposes. And I will continue it until I am otherwise led by Him. And the many people I have helped in the last four years are part of the testimony of my faithful obedience to God. And every time you go after me with your accusations, you go after all the wonderful people also who I have met, including some very Godly pastors, evangelist, pastors wives, and longtime saints of the church. You try to perpetuate a myth that it is a small band of malcontents led by Tim and Manny, who if they all came together, could be squeezed into a small room. But even if so, I would rather be alone with a few who are faithful, than in a megachurch filled with people with itching ears, listening only to what makes them feel good about themselves.

    It is interesting that you quote 2 Timothy, yet you don’t seem to be able to rightly divide the word of truth yourself. You wrongly say that we should not judge, while you judge me and my concerned friends countless times over.
    You dodge questions when it comes to determining who is a false teacher, or even to say whether something like promoting the WIldgoose Festival is disobedience to God, at the very least.
    You say you don’t know the person, but you don’t take the time to see if what I say is fact, and decide whether I speak the truth or not? You know who Rob Bell is, yet you have not commented on his latest announcement of support of “gay Christians.” Why is that? Your biblical training should easily allow you to quickly determine whether Bell’s latest pronouncement is the truth, or a lie.

    You now come up with some silly statistics about my blog posts, as if that proves something. It proves nothing but to show how you will use diversionary tactics to take away from the real issue of false teaching in the church, and the wolves who are spreading it. I’m afraid you seem to be either a wolf who is deliberately spreading these lies, or you have been so severely deceived that you don;t know the truth.

    Either way, I do pray that you and others will have their eyes open to the truth before its too late.

  • John Shingler Manny the part about “proper channels”….What do you do when proper channels are the root cause of lies, deceit and other evils? There is nothing like personal testimony…unless you can back it up with video. I will do that in my next post. It will be a repost from my own Facebook page but it is one of the key reasons I am glad I did not join the church. We will start with this and then can get into other continuing examples of why trust in leadership in the Nazarene needs reviewed. Give me a couple of minutes.
  • Bob Hunter Too late for what Manny? The apocalypse? Judgment? More of your wrath? BTW, we live in the age of Grace. I don’t think it is necessary and neither are Christians called to be prophets like Jeremiah. We are called to Love God with all of our heart, soul, mind and strength and love our neighbor as ourselves (Matt. 22: 36-40). I would also add, that I did not distort, add, subtract, lie, or deceive. I merely let your blog speak for itself. It contains very little (if any) positive proclamation of the gospel. Why would I lie? I’m sure if you word-search the same words, you will come up with identical results. Think about it, you can change trajectory of your blog. Why not post a blog entry that positively proclaims the gospel without attacking, defending or accusing? Are you able to present Christ as the hope of all nations and as the savior of the world without reacting to perceived abuses? Is it within you to bring Christ to hopeless souls and offer the bread of life without condemning others? Can you offer the living water of Christ to people and hydrate their thirsty souls without criticizing the Church for its shortcomings? I challenge you to turn the page and see what Christ will do.
  • Manny SilvaJudgment from God, Bob. I have given you enough warning. Now my focus is on those who have not heard and do not know the dangers from folks like you who are spreading the false teachings throughout the church. You may not like it, but that’s okay. I repeat- all Bible believing and faithful Christians are called to expose the false doctrines, and to rebuke and reprove those who are in serious error- including you.Not a very good attempt to convince me to stop warning my fellow Christians, but it would be a dereliction of duty. Ultimately, I don’t answer to you, the Generals, the DS’s, the pastors, or anyone else but God and the truth of His word.

    Bob, What is your opinion of Rob Bell and his announcement of his support for “gay Christians?” Are you able to give a clear answer on that?

  • Bob Hunter Manny, I have someone gay in my immediate family. I would lay down my life for this person in spite of what I think about their lifestyle. It is my job to love this person unconditionally and I intend to do so. I really don’t care what Rob Bell thinks. He doesn’t represent me, I’m not a big fan. I’m a fan of loving people whether or not I agree with them. Just doing my best to be like Jesus. I may fall short, but life is too short to constantly point out peoples’ shortcoming and be a critic. I would appeal to you to trust God to correct erring souls. Why not proclaim the gospel without a voice of antagonism? Let the power of Jesus transform peoples’ lives. It’s amazing how it can set you free!
  • Greg Farra Manny, that’s the problem. You didn’t get your way when you took the proper channels, so you don’t think you got a fair hearing to your concerns. I can understand that. But by being accountable to no one but God, you’ve set your self up to a place where you can take a scorched earth approach and not be accountable to your fellow man. People may be more willing to listen if you didn’t come across as harsh as you do, and if you were accountable to someone like your pastor.
  • Manny Silva What do you think of Rob bell’s pronouncement, Greg?
  • Greg Farra Manny, I’m not a huge Rob Bell fan. We used a few of his Nooma videos awhile back.
  • Greg Farra To continue, his videos were good but from what I’ve read and seen, he seems to be more interested in raising questions than answering them. I left the ELCA over this issue, among others, so you can probably figure out that I’m not one who views sexual relations outside the bounds of male-female marriage compatible with the Christian faith. So now that I’ve answered your question, answer mine from awhile back: why stay?
  • Manny SilvaShortcomings, Bob? You describe Rob Bell’s false teaching as a “shortcoming?” Well, I appreciate that you at least answered the question and revealed your ideology a bit more. Rob Bell clearly says he is okay with the concept that unrepentant homosexuals are Christian, and your reply is less than responsible for someone who is supposed to know the Bible and who teaches students. Very frightening indeed.”Trust God to correct erring souls?” Another error filled statement because in order for erring Christians to be corrected, those who know the truth are not to be so reckless as to neglect to correct them, is that not true, Bob? You would let one of your fellow Christians be deceived by someone like Rob Bell, and “just let God do the correcting?” Life is TOO short Bob, to allow people to continue in their sins and disobedience- because of they die in their sins, you know what the result is. I love them too much for that. And I do witness to unbelievers whenever I get the chance.

    I fear you are not being ignorant of Holy Scripture, Bob, but just simply disobedient:

    “Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them. For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) and find out what pleases the Lord. Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.” Eph. 5:6-11

    “Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all long suffering and doctrine.” 2 Tim 4:1

    “I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the one who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel— which is really no gospel at all. Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned! As we have already said, so now I say again: If anybody is preaching to you a gospel other than what you accepted, let him be eternally condemned! ” Gal 1:6-9

    “Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock. Even from your own number men will arise and distort the truth in order to draw away disciples after them.” Acts 20:28-30

    All these scriptures, and more- you ignore, because you are part of a crowd that is disobeying God and going after your own selfish ideas of what Christianity is all about. You are complicit just as those in leadership have been complicit in allowing the false teachings to come in and spread a rotten cancer throughout the church.

    You are in a very dangerous place, Bob- you and many of your friends. You’ve had plenty of warning from us.

  • John Shingler Gotta give credit to Manny on this one. Unrepentant is key on that. That is scary. We all have our monsters in us but to blow off the monster and say its ok? None of us have to be what were born to be or else I would be in jail. We are not bound to our upbring, environment, or inclings. That gives in to protected sins/victim justifications. It scales sin on a range of acceptability. Yes there is grace but it comes at the price of decisions once our eyes are open.
  • Manny Silva You did not answer my question Greg, as to what you think of Rob Bell’s pronouncement that being homosexual and being a Christian is not a conflict. Do you agree with him, or not?
    If you do, then you agree with a false teaching.But I’ll answer your question anyway: why stay? To give warning. And even if I left the denomination officially, I would continue to give warning anyway, so that’s not a big deal for me.

  • Greg Farra Right, since we’re all pulling tricks on you, according to the CN page.
  • Bob Hunter Manny-I am very much in a dangerous place, I admit it. I wrecklessly follow Jesus and read His word every day. I had a chance to go into fulltime medical sales and have a lucrative career selling products for Johnson & Johnson and its subsidiaries. I opted for ministry instead. It’s dangerous alright! No fear of judgment here, Jesus paid it all and all to him I owe. God has not given us a spirit of fear (2 Tim. 1:7). The Bible guides us, the Holy Spirit cleanses and empowers us. I’m all in.
  • Greg Farra Manny, I was asking sincere questions and you seem to be thinking I’m trying to trick you. After all of these interactions, I observation is that you’re sincere, believe in what you believe, and have a passion for the truth. You’re just going about it with a sledgehammer. You turn off people that would possibly listen but all they hear is condemnation and judgment. You claim to speak for God, and you’re not under any authority. Well, good luck with that.
  • Greg Farra should be ‘my obsevation’
  • Manny Silva Thanks Greg, for “answering” the question. You really did.
  • Greg Farra Glad I could help.
  • Manny Silva For the record, Greg, I have never claimed to speak for God, but I am under the authority of the Lord Jesus Christ and what He and the apostles teach us in scripture. I am willing to call out false teachers when they err so badly as Bell does. You are not.
    Your actual non-responsive “answer” actually says to me that you agree with Rob Bell, or are irresponsible in not being willing to say he is very wrong.
  • Greg Farra Well, by denying that you are under no authority other than God, I would suggest that you are speaking for God, since there is no one to hold you accountable. At least that is what I’m discerning.
  • Greg Farra One last thing before I go to work-there are probably a lot of people who would agree with at least some of what you’re saying about Bell, McLauren, etc., but you’re losing them because of the harsh tone you use. That automatically turns people off to listening to you. I just don’t see much love and grace in the way you communicate. I’m not saying you’re not loving or that you’re hateful, but that is what I’m hearing. In other words, it’s the way the message is going out.
  • Bob Hunter I would not say that we don’t have a right to expose false teaching, we clearly do according to scripture. But our first mandate is to proclaim the gospel of Jesus. When we hyper-focus on one portion of scripture it is easy to neglect the overall concern of the New Testament which is to tell the story of salvation and declare “good news” to humankind. I would agree there are time we need to correct and rebuke. There are times when it is necessary to deliver the bad news before the good, but when it becomes our only pursuit, we are in trouble. For example, I will gladly warn others, if they are willing to listen, that I think Benny Hinn is a charlatan. That is my individual judgment based on my understanding of scripture and his track record theologically. But I’m not interested in campaigning to defrock Benny. The danger of the Concerned Nazarenes is that they commit heresy by overemphasis. Some of their concerns may in fact be valid, but they have taken their efforts way too far. They major on the minors. An overemphasis of any biblical doctrine can make one prone to heresy. Elevating the call to expose “false teachers” to the extreme creates an environment of suspicion and fear. Not the mention the fact it turns people into self-righteous zealots. And this is precisely what has happened since this whole campaign began. As a result, real reform cannot happen even if there was a valid concern to begin with.
  • Bruce Barnard I’d still like to hear from Manny or Tim — your page calls me an “emergent” pastor…if emergents are false teachers, please cite my sermons that contain false teaching…I’d be interested in knowing what you have found…
  • Greg Farra I’m a ‘sacramental Nazarene’. Never read Bell, McLauren or any of those guys, except I did read a few chapters of a Shane Claiborne book and lost interest in about two chapters. I don’t read a whole lot of books, as I’m currently in the COS and I get a lot of reading there.
  • Manny SilvaHello. Here is the transcript of Rob Bell’s video. Any thoughts on this from a biblical perspective?Rob Bell: Yeah.

    Man in audience: On a more serious note. You’re here in West Hollywood.

    Bell: Yes.

    Man: [Kind of] the epicenter center of the gay community in southern California.

    Bell: Yes. Yeah.

    Man: A lot of the words that Christians have for us have been very negative.

    Bell: Yeah.

    Man: What do you think about that?

    Bell: Yeah. Thank you for asking that. We’re here in West Hollywood, epicenter of a lot of gay culture and you’re asking—some people are gay (pause) and you’re our brothers and you’re our sisters, and we love you.

    We love you. (audience applauds) And it’s really, really, really, important that we’re clear. I had a good friend—when I was in my teens—who was gay. And hadn’t told anybody. An’ I was the first person he told.

    And (pause) probably the most loving, generous, holy—one of the most—he was extraordinary, is extraordinary. But at an early age I was like, some people are gay; an’ God loves them just like God loves me.

    And they’re passionate disciples of Jesus, just like I’m trying to be. So, let’s all get together and try to do something about the truly big problems in our world; that I believe Jesus would us to band together, and tackle together.

    So there you go.

  • Bruce Barnard Rob Bell isn’t Nazarene…I am…question still out there…PROOF that calling me “emergent” and linking to false teachings…you say the CN’s ONLY tell the truth…your crew outed me – so let’s hear the proof…not who I read, or quote…but my false teachings…
  • Bob Hunter Bruce-you’ve been Jesus-juked!
  • Manny SilvaThe question about Bell is very important because Rob Bell spoke at a pastor’s seminar at Point Loma last year- and his material is used extensively by many Nazarene pastors, and even in may Bible studies and Sunday School classes. It is highly relevant to ask about him now. Is any pastor here willing to comment on that?(Please quote who called you a false teacher, which you say we have said. No one has said such a thing. I do believe you are in serious error, but someone saying you are emergent does not equate to a false teacher).

  • Bruce Barnard So, EMERGENTS are NOT false teachers? Is that the postion of the CN’s?
  • Greg Farra I’m not hip enough to be emergent, but I am entirely sanctified
  • Manny Silva I’ll wait until there’s a biblical opinion on Rob Bell’s comments.
  • Bruce Barnard “…there is only ONE group telling the truth — there are the CONCERNEDS, or there are those like Bruce Barnard…” (I’m inferring that not telling the truth is equal to False Teachings)…that’s from your CN FB page
  • Bruce Barnard “The only question remaining is, who is rightly dividing the word of truth, you or us? Both cannot be correct.” … again, saying I cannot be truthful…your blog…
  • Bruce Barnard Manny – you are more worried about a visitor to a Naz campus than someone currently pastoring a church (in fact, someone on your page called for me to be removed – I assume that’s not because I’m in “serious error”)…parse words all you want, but I’m waiting to hear how your group has called me out with labels but not with facts…
  • Neal ZacharyWhat a lively list of comments. 410!As to address homosexuals and Christians, we do exist, get used to it.

    Remember folks, if we must disagree, let’s do it Christianly.

    Grace and Peace!

  • Bruce Barnard Manny – do you and Tim WIrth have a “Biblical Basis” for calling me “emergent”? Do you have a “Biblical Basis” for suggesting I am not a teller of truth? If so, have you ever listened to ANY message I’ve preached and identified un-truth? Seems like very simple, not too complex, questions…I’m an ordained Nazarene elder and your crew has called me slanderous names. I’d just like to know where the proof is.
  • Manny SilvaI’ll wait and see if you have an opinion about what Rob Bell said. I believe it is that important of an issue, given his immense popualiry with Nazarenes,As I await an answer about Rob Bell, I will actually quote you and your friends, what they said about many of us:

    Bruce Barnard:
    “you are THUGS.” “you “whole-earth scorched” some friends of mine”; “you choose personal and vile attacks; “your bitter hyperbole”; “we are at opposite ends of the humanity spectrum.”

    Some of your friends:
    Karl Giberson: “Their righteous rants are nothing but thoroughly carnal and self-centered acts of hate. In another era they were the people who physically persecuted people for their beliefs.”

    John Brickley: agreed with Dan Boone’s characterization of us as “Nazarene Taliban…. their actions are shameful and they bring shame to the cause of Christ.”

    David Wesley: “None of us should put up with our brothers in Christ being beaten up by a group of thugs.”

    David Pettigrew said, “The only response to bullies is to stand up to them. They won’t go away on their own. They have absolutely no courage or shame.”

    Ron Pankey: “ungodly, unholy attack”

    Bob Hunter: “Nazarenes should stand together in calling out bullies and Jesus jukers like yourself.” “suckerpunching the denomination with irresponsible claims and rogue accusations”

    Goodnight.

  • Bruce Barnard So this quote YOU wrote about me/us : “They get tired of hearing us ask them to provide a scriptural defense of their position, or of their refutation of what we say.” … you do the same thing you criticize others for…?…Rob Bell can defend himself if he chooses – he’s a big boy…I”m simply asking YOU to defend what you say about me…I don’t get why that requires me to defend Rob Bell to you first…
  • Greg Farra Bruce, we don’t have to answer anything from Manny or his group. They have no standing or authority from anyone. No one is listening to them. I thought we could have a discussion, but I feel like I’m back to the days of witnessing to cults.
  • Bruce Barnard Manny – with all due respect this isn’t about what others have said about you…you claim repeatedly that ALL of your claims can be backed up with scripture…I’m simply asking you to point to a Biblical definition of “emergent” that proves I’m worthy of that label…and then to prove it with my teaching…it shouldn’t be this difficult…
  • Joe Vinette Manny is no more than a prideful person who wishes to impede Pharisaical demands on people who make him feel uncomfortable. Many times guys and groups like his just need to be tossed into the fan. The saying is when the crap hits the fan it splatters. No one will ever feel encouraged or pointed to Christ by a selfish, side seeking, legalistic person like him or his group. Frankly, it is very sad that not only is his group never going to make a difference but their funk is going to make the rest of us plug our nose. I wish he could truly define all these insults and the context-less nature of them. He needs to ask himself how his arguments makes him accurate in re-guards to fighting for authentic Nazarene legitimacy. From reading what he has wrote…his arguments present themselves as vague, uneducated and poorly rehearsed rabbit trails of secular theology.
  • John ShinglerAuthority comes from God alone. Most of what I see here is a confusion between authority as a term vs. Employment.I know towmotor drivers as well as some pastors who have AUTHORITY.

    Employment in a church is just a series of employees, managers, and company officers.

    And one of the things I like about Dan Bohi, and I do not agree with him on everything, is that none of you can control the guy because he doesn’t fall under your man made employment structures. And he scares the crap out of all of you because he says a lot of truth and a lot of people hear him. But there are other voices out there much like him. Voices some of you hear and some of you si,ply court because it scares the crap out of you or it adds money to your local plates.

  • Manny Silva John Shingler, what are your thoughts on Dan Bohi’s claims of raising dead people back to life?
  • Bruce Barnard I’ve seen someone declared clinically dead, folks prayed, and they “came back”…I don’t know the context, but I’m pretty sure it wasn’t, “Hey, come out of that tomb!”…do CN’s not believe in the power of prayer…?…do CN’s discount stories of folks who died, “went to heaven”, and returned while family, friends, and CLERGY were praying for them…?…what make you of the Todd Burpo book, “Heaven is For Real”…(and what’s up with engaging John about Bohi but NOT answering the unfounded allegations you and your crew make about me?)
  • Manny Silva To many questions all at once!
    Just asking John his opinion. Why so touchy about me asking questions about what Dan Bohi has claimed at least three times? As far as Heaven Is For Real, there are many things in it that do not agree with Scripture, aside from the fact that someone else is again claiming new revelations from God and expects us to believe everything they said without comparing to God’s settled word- therefore I do not find the book credible. Do you believe every single thing someone might tell you of an after death experience, without question?
  • John Shingler It would be nice to have a list of witnesses willing to confirm it. I believe it happens. I have never seen it happen myself. I won’t say he is lying or telling the truth. If he is lying, and atribbuting a lie to the Holy Spirit then there will be hell to pay. Same hell, however, that will be needing paid if it did happen and he is being called a liar or working witchcraft. On this specific thing I can only say I believe it happens.
  • Manny Silva Heaven Is For Real is “experiential nonsense”, of which too many are seeking now- instead of sticking to sound doctrine from God’s Holy word.
  • Manny Silva But John, if claims are made in the book that do not line up with Scripture- guess what, the book must be rejected, don’t you agree?
  • Bruce Barnard I’m not a fan of Heaven is For Real – but it’s being used in many mainstream groups…but I do believe folks have had after death experiences…and come back…so I don’t see any conflict between that and what Dan has said…(unless he’s claiming it in such a time frame to make it impossible – dead, embalmed, tomb sealed – kinda thing)…
  • John Shingler I have not read it. What does it say?
  • David W. Edwards I remember years ago writing some early computer Basic code, and writing a logic loop accidentally. I have a friend who does that in his conversation and thinking. He’ll ask a question and I answer it. He responds, “but what about ..” the same thing. I answer it again in a different way. He responds, “but what about …” the same thing. Finally I just give up and walk away. Manny’s question about Rob Bell reminds me of that logic loop that cannot be answered, because no matter how you answer, it won’t be what he wants to hear. And don’t ask me. I don’t know Bell, have only read one thing he helped write (Jesus Wants to Save Christians), which I thought was thought-provoking. I haven’t heard him speak, and don’t particularly care to. It would be impossible for me to answer Manny’s “logic loop”.
  • David W. Edwards I’ve been told I should read “Heaven is for Real”, but I haven’t. And have no interest. I’ve read a lot of things with which I disagree. Just because I read something doesn’t mean I buy into it.
  • Verne Haskell Nazarenes have never, in my experience, been too arrogant to glean thoughts from those with whom we disagree, such as Jon Calvin. Hearing and considering other points of view does not make one a subscriber to an entire system. Asking questions about how the church might engage culture better does not necessitate conforming to the culture. Paul had dialogue with Greek philosophers. Was he thereby “emergent?” CNs are making a leap of logic that is not edifying.
  • John ShinglerOk, just read a blurb on Amazon about what the book was about. I know none of the actual book. But what is not scriptural about the book?What does Rob Bell have to do with Dan Bohi?

    What am I missing?

  • Manny Silva Nothing to do with Rob Bell, John. Your mention of him just led me to ask that question. He has been the subject of concern for a lot of folks who have been listening to his sermons. I am still doing some additional listening, and Tim has already written an article regarding some of his teaching.
  • John Shingler I didn’t say anything about Rob Bell. I watched a youtube clip with him in it a year ago or so. I think it was about a book called love wins. If I have nothing but that though I found him to be a quack that makes God into a doormat.
  • Manny SilvaI did not read the entire book yet, but I have read enough, as well as read comments such as from David Cloud, that convinced me because of the contradictions to Scripture:”We don’t doubt that the little boy is convinced that he visited heaven, but we don’t believe for a minute that it actually happened.

    First, the book is contrary to the testimony of Scripture that the apostles were the last to see the resurrected Christ. This was one of the evidences of apostleship (Acts 1:22; 1 Corinthians 9:1; 15:7). Paul said that he was the last of the apostles to see Christ, meaning that he saw Christ some time after the other apostles had seen him (1 Cor. 15:8). This occurred on more than one occasion in his life as described in the book of Acts. Paul gave this testimony in the context of giving the eyewitness evidence for Christ’s resurrection. We also know that the apostle John saw Christ on the island of Patmos as described in Revelation 1. All of the evidence we need for our faith is found in the testimony of Scripture and in these particular eyewitnesses.

    Second, the book is contrary to Paul’s statement that when he had visited heaven he heard things that he was not allowed to repeat (2 Cor. 12:4). Obviously, then, a person cannot visit heaven and describe whatever he sees and hears there.

    Third, the book Heaven Is for Real is contrary God’s emphasis on the priority and sufficiency of faith and Scripture. The book contains testimonies of how people have believed in God and heaven because of Colton’s alleged visitation, but the Bible says that without faith it is impossible to please God (Heb. 11:6), and faith comes by hearing God’s Word, not by signs and wonders (Romans 10:17). In his account of the rich man and Lazarus, Jesus taught that if someone does not hear the Scriptures, he will not “be persuaded, though one rose from the dead” (Luke 16:31). All of the signs and revelation we need are found in the completed canon of Scripture (John 20:30-31). The Bible is able to make the man of God “perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works “(2 Timothy 3:16-17). God has told us everything He wants us to know about heaven at this time.

    Fourth, the book Heaven Is for Real is contrary to the Bible’s plain teachings. For example, Colton says Jesus’ horse is rainbow-colored (p. 63), whereas the Bible says it is white (Rev. 19:11). Colton says the Holy Spirit shoots down power from heaven (p. 125), whereas the Bible says the Holy Spirit came from heaven at Pentecost and He is the power (Acts 1:8). Colton says everyone has wings in heaven except Jesus (p. 72), that the angel Gabriel sits on the left hand of God’s throne (p. 101), that the Holy Spirit is blue and sits in a chair near the throne of God (p. 102), and “for our Catholic friends” the book is happy to report that Mary stands in heaven beside Jesus (p. 152). Some might ask, how Colton could learn secrets about his dead sister who died in the womb and facts about his great grandfather that he had not been told. The answer is demons. Paul warned that Satan transforms himself into an angel of light and his ministers as ministers of righteousness (2 Cor. 11:14-15). The book Heaven Is for Real also promotes the visions of child progeny Akiane Kramarik, who began “seeing heaven” at age four (pp. 141-144). Colton claims that the “Jesus” that he saw in heaven is the same “Jesus” that Akiane drew from her visions at age nine. But Akiane’s religious faith is a New Age type faith in a vaguely defined “God.” It is religious mysticism rather than faith in an infallible Revelation from God and the blood atonement of Christ. Even if we knew what Jesus looked like, we are forbidden by God’s law to make His likeness (Exodus 20:4).”
    (David Cloud, Way of Life website)

  • Manny Silva Sure it’s possible for you to answer me David. All I asked was for you to consider what he said about homosexuality, and then respond as a Christian. It’s your right not to respond, but you are capable of giving an informed answer based on your knowledge of God’s word.
  • Bob Hunter I spent some time thinking about how we identify a “false teacher.” Manny & Tim appear to be the only experts on this matter, so this post is not for them, it is for the rest of us. Here is what I came up with. A “False teacher” or “heretic” is someone who willfully rejects a doctrine or belief held to be normative by a group or institution. It would require outright denial of basic Christian dogma. Not all doctrines have dogmatic status. The doctrine of the Trinity and the Christological formulations of the N.T. are found at the center of Christian dogma. To violate, reject or deny basic Christian dogma is to commit heresy. I do not see where this basic criteria has been met when calling out ministers like Dan Bohi, Rob Bell, etc. I’m not defending their methods, ideas or practice of faith, I’m just saying they would not be considered “false teachers” by the historical definition. Moreover, Jesus offered some additional instruction in Matthew 7:15-23. There are many who teach and prophesy in His name, but teach not the truth. Jesus said we will know false prophets by how they act in their daily lives. Their true spiritual character will show in their day-to-day acts. Their actions must align with their teachings and if they do not, we may call them into question. Galatians 5:22-23 give us a pretty good measure for examining the fruitfulness of a teacher. Bear in mind, there will be a day of judgment for those who haven’t shown good fruit (2 Cor. 5:10). From my reading of Matthew 7, it seems that a false teacher cannot hide their true nature for long, the truth will come out. I was thrust into this debate when G.S. Jesse Middendorf was criticized as a promoter of heresy. He was my pastor for 3 years and he officiated at my wedding ceremony 18 years ago. I think i would know if his teachings and daily actions didn’t comply with the spirit of Jesus. So far as I know, Manny stands alone in his claim that Dr. Middendorf is promoter of heresy. His claim is unfounded and unprecedented. So are his claims against many others. If we cannot examine the teachings of an individual firsthand and personally witness their daily actions, then we have no basis upon which to claim they deserve the label “false teacher” or promoter of heresy. So all of this to say, Manny does not have a leg to stand on. He has not proven biblically, historically and spiritually that Dan Bohi or Bruce Barnard are false. Nor can he. His only basis for doing so goes something like this: They are false teachers because I say they are. Not good enough. If Manny is able to produce witnesses and provide substantive proof that these men have denied the Christian faith in practice and rejected basic Christian dogma, then he might have a case. But in the CotN we have a process for that and it must be orderly. The Apostle Paul stress orderliness when dealing with problematic doctrine in the Church. Manny’s campaign is anything but orderly and respectful, it is chaotic, disrespectful and rogue.
  • John ShinglerMaybe Jesus has more than one horse? Paul may have been told to be quiet but John was saying a lot about it.Not sure about the other things. Maybe God was displaying what could be best conveyed to someone that young so he could speak when he went back?

    Not sure about the other points but I probably won’t buy that book or Rob Bell’s book. The last Christ related books I bought I still haven’t read except for another re read of Mere Christianity. That kicks butt.

  • Greg Farra The Cost of Discipleship by Bonnhoeffer is good
  • John Shingler I want that!!!!! I have read biographical stuff and have read many of his quotes. True courage to go right back into Germany in the middle of all that. I believe he was hung just weeks before Germany surrendered. I could be wrong about that though. I intend to get that book!
  • Greg Farra Another one is ‘The Hiding Place’ by Corrie Ten Boom. Her family hid Jews and they all went to concentration camps when they were discovered.
  • David W. Edwards Manny, I don’t care what Bell said about homosexuality. I have an uncle who is living a homosexual lifestyle. I sincerely believe that God loves him, that Jesus died for him, and desires his salvation more than I do. Whether he will be saved, I do not know, but it is not your place nor mine to pronounce judgment on him.
    I find your comments about our Nazarene colleges to be insulting. Our students, and especially our ministerial students, are NOT empty skulls waiting to be filled with a prescribed formulation of thought. They are intelligent, rational, critical thinkers, who are being challenged to think through the issues, opinions, doctrines, and dogma. If I were a theology professor, I would gladly bring in all kinds of speakers, including heretics, to expose the students and to help them understand why we believe certain things and not others. I want my daughter’s faith to be her own, arrived at in her own understanding. My role as parent, pastor, Sunday School teacher, is to lay foundations for her to build upon. Her faith must be HER faith. As frightening as the process may be sometimes, I have to trust her, and pray. My college professors challenged me with “foreign” ideas; they forced me to think through a lot of issues and build my own faith that I could defend. I had to explain and defend my faith to the various ministerial boards, so that they would know that I would teach, preach, and “contend for the faith once for all entrusted to the saints”. I want my daughter, called to ministry, to be able to do the same.
  • Greg Farra 107. Full Membership. All persons who have been organized
    into a local church by those authorized so to do, and
    all who have been publicly received by the pastor, the district
    superintendent, or the general superintendent, after
    having declared their experience of salvation, and their belief
    in the doctrines of the Church of the Nazarene, and their
    willingness to submit to its government, shall compose the
    full membership of the local church.
  • Greg Farra When you become a member of the COTN you are required to submit to the authority of the church government. By openly declaring that you are not in submission to church authority you are in violation of a requirement for membership.
  • Greg Farra 37. The Church of the Nazarene views human sexuality
    as one expression of the holiness and beauty that God the
    Creator intended for His creation. It is one of the ways by
    which the covenant between a husband and a wife is sealed
    and expressed. Christians are to understand that in marriage
    human sexuality can and ought to be sanctified by
    God. Human sexuality achieves fulfillment only as a sign of
    comprehensive love and loyalty. Christian husbands and
    wives should view sexuality as a part of their much larger
    commitment to one another and to Christ from whom the
    meaning of life is drawn.
    The Christian home should serve as a setting for teaching
    children the sacred character of human sexuality and for
    showing them how its meaning is fulfilled in the context of
    love, fidelity, and patience.
    Our ministers and Christian educators should state clearly
    the Christian understanding of human sexuality, urging
    Christians to celebrate its rightful excellence, and rigorously
    to guard against its betrayal and distortion.
    Sexuality misses its purpose when treated as an end in itself
    or when cheapened by using another person to satisfy
    pornographic and perverted sexual interests. We view all
    forms of sexual intimacy that occur outside the covenant of
    heterosexual marriage as sinful distortions of the holiness
    and beauty God intended for it.
    Homosexuality is one means by which human sexuality is
    perverted. We recognize the depth of the perversion that
    leads to homosexual acts but affirm the biblical position
    that such acts are sinful and subject to the wrath of God. We
    believe the grace of God sufficient to overcome the practice
    of homosexuality (1 Corinthians 6:9-11). We deplore any action
    or statement that would seem to imply compatibility
    between Christian morality and the practice of homosexuality.
    We urge clear preaching and teaching concerning Bible
    standards of sexual morality.
    37. The Church of the Nazarene views human sexuality
    as one expression of the holiness and beauty that God the
    Creator intended for His creation. It is one of the ways by
    which the covenant between a husband and a wife is sealed
    and expressed. Christians are to understand that in marriage
    human sexuality can and ought to be sanctified by
    God. Human sexuality achieves fulfillment only as a sign of
    comprehensive love and loyalty. Christian husbands and
    wives should view sexuality as a part of their much larger
    commitment to one another and to Christ from whom the
    meaning of life is drawn.
    The Christian home should serve as a setting for teaching
    children the sacred character of human sexuality and for
    showing them how its meaning is fulfilled in the context of
    love, fidelity, and patience.
    Our ministers and Christian educators should state clearly
    the Christian understanding of human sexuality, urging
    Christians to celebrate its rightful excellence, and rigorously
    to guard against its betrayal and distortion.
    Sexuality misses its purpose when treated as an end in itself
    or when cheapened by using another person to satisfy
    pornographic and perverted sexual interests. We view all
    forms of sexual intimacy that occur outside the covenant of
    heterosexual marriage as sinful distortions of the holiness
    and beauty God intended for it.
    Homosexuality is one means by which human sexuality is
    perverted. We recognize the depth of the perversion that
    leads to homosexual acts but affirm the biblical position
    that such acts are sinful and subject to the wrath of God. We
    believe the grace of God sufficient to overcome the practice
    of homosexuality (1 Corinthians 6:9-11). We deplore any action
    or statement that would seem to imply compatibility
    between Christian morality and the practice of homosexuality.
    We urge clear preaching and teaching concerning Bible
    standards of sexual morality.
  • Bob Hunter Valid point Greg.
  • Greg Farra I occasionally make one!
  • Greg Farra So Manny, are you an active member of your church and does your pastor support what you’re doing?
  • John ShinglerCOTN membership doesn’t sound too good to me. It has been my experience, no offense sincerely, that the larger organization protects less than scrupulous cadre from inquiry. And the heirarchy doesn’t respond to the individual layperson’s concerns. I am only speaking from my personal experience and I am quite glad I have not joined the cotn in light of this entire conversation. I truly question the entire notion of church authority as it has been laid out here.I see little difference between cotn and the catholic church in terms of power held by mere men/women/brothers/sisters.

  • Greg Farra maybe it’s because you don’t want to be accountable?
  • John Shingler No. That’s not it.
  • Greg Farra Wow, Manny, I’m Ermergent? Where did you get that idea?
  • Bruce Barnard Manny – once again you do what you claim in your recent posts that emergents do…you have never answered by questions – are all emergents “false teachers” as you imply in almost every post…?…or do the CN’s allow that some emergents are NOT false teachers…?…please define EMERGENT as related to me, show me the BIBLICAL evidence against “emerging”, and prove that is me with actual quotes from my teaching…you and TIm are great at doing what this POST was about – bullying from a distance but not really interested in facts…
    Monday at 8:59am · Like · 2
  • Eddie Rester Why would they be interested in facts? Like the San Hedrin, they have an angry mob. Facts aren’t needed at that point.
  • Greg Farra Well, I’m named as ‘Emergent’ on his blog. That would surprise the homosexual Lutherans on Beliefnet who used to call me fundamentalist and bigoted, not to mention hateful.
  • Bruce Barnard A followup to THIS note is here: https://www.facebook.com/notes/bruce-barnard/another-open-letter-to-concerned-nazarenes/10151233724165449

    Definitions — BULLYING: using influence to intimidate someone to to what you w…See More
  • Bruce Barnard Tim Wirth – you claim I “continue to say you called me a false teacher which you never did”…so, my question to you — ARE EMERGENTS FALSE TEACHERS? (because you most definitely call me an EMERGENT) Can an EMERGENT be teaching TRUTH? What is the positon of the CN’s?

One response to “Bruce Barnard’s FaceBook Dialogue RE: Concerned Nazarenes

  1. Hi Bruce, this is Mez and Martha from Maine. Wez think we know you. Wez were going to go to the Nazarene church downs the street, is the Nazarene church ok or are they just mad people?

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