Proclaiming The Gospel, Or Leading Sheep To The Slaughter?

“and with all the deceit of unrighteousness in those who perish, because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.  And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie, that they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.” 2 Thess. 2:10-12

My last post talked about Jay McDaniel and his lecture at Northwest Nazarene University.  This lecture took place in October, 2006, although only recently was it made public. Yet, it is still a relevant example of the extreme liberal ideology and emergent thinking that has permeated this and other Nazarene universities and is still going on, therefore its relevance.  Brian McLaren was there in 2008 with his three day Everything Must Change tour.  It seems the university has a penchant for inviting very liberal speakers to the campus, with little opportunity for debate from anyone with traditional Christian and/or Nazarene theology.
Now comes Sister Helen Prejean.  She is scheduled to speak Wednesday night (1/27) on campus, and I wonder if there will be an equally opposing viewpoint presented in a significant way?  Sister Helen is the Catholic nun on which the movie Dead Man Walking was based.  She has since been shown to be at least very erroneous in many of her writings, or even purposely deceiving, in her work to oppose the death penalty by defending murderers who have clearly been found guilty of their heinous crimes.  Her support for the gay lifestyle and ordination of gays is certainly not a standard Nazarene position, and she is a supporter of ecumenical interfaith movements.

Scheduled to be the headline speaker at the annual Wesley Center Conference in February is Philip Yancey, author of “What’s So Amazing About Grace?”  Yancey is clearly not Wesleyan in his thinking, and he equivocates on or supports the gay lifestyle as well as ordination of gays.  He also is an advocate for the contemplative spirituality movement.  So the beat goes on to bring in speakers with aberrant views to NNU on a regular basis, to say whatever they want, and most likely, without anything but a token opposition by way of a weak disclaimer.

I encouraged everyone to view Dr. McDaniel’s lecture and see for themselves the kind of heresy that is being presented to our students at some of our Nazarene universities. I viewed it again and took notes, so here you can have the opportunity to learn of some of the more outrageous and unbiblical things that were said by Dr. McDaniel.

Many today are being led as sheep to the slaughter because of all the false teachers and preachers who are perverting the word of God.  By the very words that he spoke in that lecture, I cannot see how Dr. McDaniel can even be called a Christian.  Jesus said in Matthew:

“Beware of false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. 16 You will know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes from thornbushes or figs from thistles? 17 Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them.

What is the fruit of Dr. McDaniel’s teachings, and of those who were complicit in allowing him to bring such false teachings to vulnerable, impressionable students who are not grounded in the word of God?  Are we ourselves complicit in some way, if we don’t speak out?  If you have a college bound child right now, ask yourself this: could he or she be in this precarious position someday, and will you regret sending them to a school such as this?  Are you willing to take the chance that your child will be exposed to this kind of teaching in such a way as to have it passed off as truth to them?  Perhaps it would be better that they go to a secular school instead.  At least there, they would know that what they listen to must be judged carefully; whereas, how many students would even think to distrust any professor or lecturer at a Christian school?

One of the most painful things I heard from the lecture was not from Dr. McDaniel, but from a student, who asked him: “How do we merge our faith… how do we gather these truths and make it available to our congregations, to our people without making people nervous?” Let me translate what she is really asking, even though she may not realize it: “How can I bring this heresy you are passing off as truth, back to my church, without upsetting those who still believe that Jesus is the only way to God?”

If some think that Dr. McDaniel is bearing good fruit, let me give you some more detail of what is coming off his tree, and being presented to gullible students, much like what satan presented to Eve in the garden.  In fact, it is the same thing, because either the fruit being produced in our lives is of God, or it is of satan.  It can’t be both, because a lie cannot be mixed together with truth, and produce good fruit.  Dr. McDaniel was clearly feeding lies to students at a Nazarene university.  Who will be held responsible for this now, and more seriously, later on in front of God and His judgment?  I pray that the blood of these students will not be on my hands or yours; instead, will you meet the challenge to be a watchman on the wall for the Lord?

Here are just a few of Dr. McDaniel’s “best” thoughts, and if you do watch the video, most of you will be very upset.  During his lecture, I do not recall a single quote from scripture.  I do recall repeated uses of the phrase “I think.”  That is how it is with false teachers like this.  They want to teach you what they think, rather than teaching you what God thinks, and what God clearly speaks through His word.  In 2 Timothy, we are given a serious warning of these kinds of men:

“For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lusts shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears; And they shall turn away their ears from the truth, and shall be turned unto fables.”  2 Tim. 4:3-4

And instead of asking him, “but what do the scriptures say”, undiscerning students take it in as easily as a small child being given poisoned candy, without question.  They instead praise his “wisdom.”

1. Here Dr. McDaniel is talking about his story, and some of the things he learned in life:

“So I went looking for writers who would give me an image of a more open kind of Christianity- and I turned to this writer named Thomas Merton.  He’s a Catholic.  And he was one of the first Christians who I encountered who I would say had deep roots in Christianity-and strong wings- he was open to truth wherever he found it.

Dr. McDaniel tells us he has learned much from a man who was into mysticism, worshipped Mary, and believed all kinds of heresies, and who saw no contradiction between Buddhism and Christianity- and who was accidentally electrocuted shortly after beginning a search for “wisdom” during a pilgrimage to several Eastern countries.
But truth is not found “wherever” you find it.  Truth is found in only one source: God.  And that truth is manifested in the person of His Son, Jesus Christ, and also through the only written source of Truth, the Bible.  Yet this professing Christian chooses to ignore the Source of truth, and declares that truth can be found in many places.  And if you watch the lecture, you will be simply amazed at how he twists the meaning of John 14:6, and fails to answer the question: “Is Jesus the only way to God?”

2. He talked about a Buddhist friend, and he says that he once asked his friend the following:

“What do you know that I don’t?  And his Buddhist friend answered, “I know that I am you, and you are me too, but you don’t know that.”

This comment is a reflection of what this man believes in: panentheism, the teaching that God is in all, and that really means ALL; all people, all trees, all rocks, everything.  He believes this, as shown in this link to a piece he wrote: In Pan-entheism, God Exists in Beings Everywhere.  So that would include satan I suppose, because he is a being, and that would include those who reject God outright.  But this is simply a lie, and God is not IN all things, but rather when we repent and turn to faith in Christ, he gives us the Holy Spirit, which guides us into all truth.

He goes on to say, “maybe my Buddhist friend can help me think about God in a fresh way.” Really? Let’s have a Nazarene pastor say this during a sermon, and let’s see how many discerning Christians will buy into this foolishness.  Remember again, he claims to be a Christian.  But so did Thomas Merton, who blended his Roman Catholic beliefs with Eastern religions.  If this is good for Northwest Nazarene University, hey, let’s bring it to all of our schools and seminaries and churches.

He continues:

“And so the simple point I am explaining to you is, I, to this day, feel grateful to a Buddhist  for helping me understand my own faith more deeply.  He knew something I needed to know.”

Where does it come close in the scriptures where it teaches us such nonsense?  We can understand our faith better from the teachings and life experience of a Buddhist, or perhaps a Daoist, Hindu, or Muslim?  Can you see why I and some others who viewed this lecture struggled with watching it in one sitting?  This lecture started going down the wrong road in the first five minutes when he was being introduced.

He goes on:

” And can our receptivity- indeed even our vulnerability- You have something to teach me…..can that be a part of our good news to the world?  Can our good news to the world be that… we will listen, with a willingness to be touched.  With a willingness to be moved? With a willingness to be in a way, converted into deeper forms of love, with their help?”

This man is a universalist, or at least sympathizes with that ideology, as will be evident if you listen to all that he says.  Later on, he answers the question: “Who goes to heaven?  Is Christ still the only way to get to heaven? Does John 14:6 still apply?”

I can tell you that he never answered a straight yes or no.  But read one part of his three part answer here:

“I think my Hindu friend can be open to Christ, without confessing Jesus.  And if she is saved… in a way she is saved through Christ, even if that does not mean that she believes in Jesus. I don’t know who goes to heaven. And I don’t think it’s important to know that.  I don’t think its important to be able to say to yourself or to the world…I know who goes to heaven, and I know who doesn’t.

Again, a universalistic philosophy is being taught here by a professed evangelical Christian, to students at a Nazarene university.  And I’m afraid, some of them are soaking it up as truth!  Because that is clearly what he is espousing here.  But that’s okay, because after all, it’s a liberal arts school, right?  And because it is, that gives us the excuse of throwing every kind of false teaching at our students, and even if some are being led to the slaughter… well, at least we made them think, right?

4. Here is another quote as part of his answer to that question:

“And I know that God meets me through Jesus…but not only through Jesus.  God meets me through the hills and the rivers and the trees and the stars. God meets me through my family.  God meets me through John Coltrane (he’s a jazz musician).  God meets me through music.  I’m not going to restrict the ways God meets me- to Jesus.  And I don’t think Jesus would want me to.  But who goes to heaven… let’s just wait and see.”

5. Finally, from a report by the editors at Lighthouse Trails Research:  McDaniel stated that if Jesus had meant to say that He himself was the way, the truth, and the life, it would have been egocentric and arrogant of Jesus – He only meant to point people in the right direction – letting go of ego and grasping love. McDaniel stated also that Buddhist mindfulness (eastern meditation) is just as truth filled  as doctrine and theology. He said there was an overemphasis in the church on doctrine calling it bibliolatry (idol worship of the Bible).

Perhaps from this, more Christians will become aware of just one example of the evil being fed our students at some of these Nazarene universities.  Got a child close to college age?  Beware, you had better do your homework, if you are of the same mind as me, that this is dangerous stuff, and it does not belong in our Christian universities.  If you don’t have a child going to school soon, you ought to still be concerned.  These kids are either our brothers and sisters in Christ, or they are unbelieving students who will be led to believe in another Jesus, another gospel, which will lead them straight to the gates of hell.  But we ought to care about all of them, not only those we know personally.

Sorry if my directness and bluntness might disturb anyone, especially folks at NNU, but this is the truth of what is happening almost everywhere, in all denominations, and this is a deadly, serious game that we cannot afford to allow to continue unchallenged.  To those who believe we should speak the truth in love, this is what exactly what some of us are doing.  When it comes to false teachers, remember what the scriptures say:

Ephesians 5:6-11 Let no one deceive you with empty words, for because of such things God’s wrath comes on those who are disobedient. Therefore do not be partners with them. For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light (for the fruit of the light consists in all goodness, righteousness and truth) and find out what pleases the Lord. Have nothing to do with the fruitless deeds of darkness, but rather expose them.

I pray that more of us will wake up to this, and voice their strong concerns to our leadership and to those who are inviting these wolves in sheep’s clothing into our schools, where so many vulnerable sheep are awaiting for real truth to be spoken to them, but may instead buy into a lie.  Those who are responsible for bringing these speakers and professors to our universities should be held accountable, and perhaps the way to start doing that is by using the power of the checkbook- and withholding it!

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19 responses to “Proclaiming The Gospel, Or Leading Sheep To The Slaughter?

  1. Manny, I just watched the video and I am in unbelief that this stuff is being spewed out at our universities. I would love to hear from the general church on this matter. I am sure that the majority of Nazarenes would be shocked to know what the next generation of Nazarenes leaders are being taught. I have for the past 25 years worked as a lay leader in my local youth group and have seen some of these false teachings find there way into the church via young youth pastors who have been fed many of these lies. I have decided to stay for now and fight these heresies. I have found this to be an uphill battle since many people in the church are biblically illiterate and cannot discern what is or is not false teaching. May God bless you and I will continue to pray for your ministry.

  2. Hi Terry,
    I would love to hear from the general church also. I sent the link to the Board of General Superintendents last week- and also sent them this post yesterday, I also believe the majority would not like this- the problem is, this is a stealth movement in many ways.

    Part of the big frustration among many of us has been the silence from leadership up to this point- from what I know. I have requested comment before- many others I know also have not had any response- and then there was the assurance from the General Secretary at General Assembly that they would come out with a statement regarding the emerging church- still waiting.

    We just need to keep pressing on, ask for answers- and while waiting, keep warning the flock.
    Blessings to you as well, Terry,
    Staying in there as well for now, to help my fellow Nazarenes.
    In Christ,
    Manny

  3. “strong delusion”- sounds like you. Of course you can’t see it because it’s a “strong delusion”. The evidence is found in your strong objection to this statement- the more you think you’re right just reveals how strong your delusion is.

    your father would weep at such lost ignorance in the name of God. It is sad that even in reading this you will resolve to hold fast to your delusion thinking you are holding fast to God.

  4. Hello Nathan,
    Would you be so kind as to defend any of the things I have criticized here, rather than saying I am ignorant. By the way, did you know my father? If not, then don’t make any assumptions about him.

    And if you are able to defend any of these teachings that McDaniel has brought to NNU, would you do it with reference to scripture- the Bible. That is what I base my Christian faith and practice on- the word of God. So could you defend Dr. McDaniel based on the word of God? If you cannot, that sadly, that shows that you are probably under the delusion- not me.

    I have a feeling you will not be able to do it- but I am willing to listen to you- but again, don’t apply your thinking- base it on God’s word, nothing else.

    Sincerely,
    Manny

  5. Manny,

    I knew of your father,his great reputation, but not personally. No assumptions here, but I know enough that his ministry was far greater than delusional heretic hunting you do.

    I am not defending the things you criticized, but rather criticizing you for your lack of integrity in your attacks. To start with you quote 2 Thess. 2:10-12, 2 Tim. 4:3-4, and Ephesians 5:6-11as your primary text and then you simply assign them as somehow applying to opponents without any real exegesis or historical context for what these texts are really talking about.

    Is this your “biblical” arguments against these things? How irresponsible and abusive to the scripture!!!

    Your only other scriptural reference is John 14:6 which I affirm 100% . While i have some issues with you say McDaniel has said, his position is not “universalistic philosophy”. He is not saying EVERYONE is going to heaven or is part of the Kingdom of God, he did not say there is more than one way to God.

    You throw around terms like “universalistic” and “liberal” the same way you do “heretic”; not caring if the meaning is accurate or not as long as you can use those words to try and discredit those you disagree with.

    Is this loving your neighbor or even your enemy to mis-characterize and exaggerate his position? Is this carefully handling the Word and Truth?

    Though I do not agree with McDaniel, his argument is one about how we come to believe and accept Jesus Christ as the only Way. He is not questioning Jesus as the only Way. He asks the question if God can move beyond just words, does it matter what if we get the word “Jesus” exactly right? If so, we might be in trouble since “Jesus” isn’t actually his name but an English substitution for it. Is Jesus’ name a magic word or incantation that gets us “saved”, or does his name represent something bigger than just the word- something substantial bigger than just what we might call it? This seems like a good question to explore no matter how we might fall on either side of it.

    regardless, McDaniel is not saying what you are say he is saying- he is not promoting universalism- you may still disagree with it- but what you are saying about him though is “false”- that makes you a “false” teacher as you propagate what isn’t true. A behavior not in the likeness of Jesus- more like a behavior of those who made up stories to condemn Jesus. They thought he was a heretic so that made them think it was ok to make up evidence against him or twists his words.

    To be clear, just because you mis-characterize McDaniel does not make him right, but neither does you finding another way to prove him wrong make YOU right.

    Your actions are completely shameful.

  6. Nathan,

    1. You affirm John 14:6 as being 100% in agreement with it, yet Dr. McDaniel says:

    ““I think my Hindu friend can be open to Christ, without confessing Jesus. And if she is saved… in a way she is saved through Christ, even if that does not mean that she believes in Jesus.”

    How much confusion is he trying to throw at students here?? Of course he is questioning that Jesus is the only way! He refused to acknowledge that in the Q&A! What kind of biblical discernment do you have, that you can’t recognize that what he believes is plain heresy? Are you one of those people who see this stuff for what it is, but cannot bring yourself to call it for what it is? Or do you think Christians should never expose heresy or false teaching when it is obvious?

    2. Did you go to the link I provided, where in his own words, he talks about his belief in panentheism? Tell me, do think that belief lines up with Christianity? Is God in ALL things for you also?
    If not, there’s more heresy right in front of your eyes! So when I say that this is heresy, from his own words, you say I am being false?

    Nathan, it is obvious that you are either blind, or you believe just like he does, and you are doing all you can to defend this dangerous unbiblical false teaching that he and others like Brian McLaren promote.

    I will pray for you, Nathan, and the many who have fallen for this delusion- because that is exactly what it is, if you cannot see the danger when it’s right in front of you. I ask you to go back to the scriptures and not fall for this deceitful ideology.

    And by the way, my father would have clearly rejected all this garbage that Dr. McDaniel was throwing out there- it is not Christianity, it is not the gospel as taught by Jesus or the apostles.

  7. Manny,

    You must only hear when things are presented in the “right” buzz words. Just because someone says “God is in all” does not mean it is heresy. I even think you have to concede some “pan-en-theistic” aspects of our Christian thought.

    Stop a minute Manny and go back to the Bible where the word “Panentheism”, like “Trinity” and other theological terms, aren’t mentioned and see if you see “pan-en-theistic” qualities.

    Is God in all? you tell me? Did Jesus become one with his creation in the incarnation or not? Was Jesus not the second Adam, a fellow decedent from Adam, who was formed from the the very earth? Isn’t man’s connectedness to all creation evident in the fact that all of creation suffered because of the fall? Isn’t it even more evident that through Jesus, God incarnate into human being, that all creation will be one day redeemed?

    These are all biblical ideas!! it is about celebrating the Creator involved in his creation. It is NOT saying that that God IS = to creation, but that we can encounter the Creator through creation that’s Pantheism not Panentheism.

    God is in ALL- YES, this is Biblical even if someone describes it as perhaps “pan-en-theistic”. Perhaps you are confusing this view with Pantheism that says- “All is God.” I don’t see McDaniel saying that anywhere.

    if you want to argue against “pan-en-theistic” ideas in the Bible then your welcome to try. All you have given is John 14:6 and it does not contradict any of these ideas.

  8. Nathan,

    I’ll let your words speak for themselves, and let everyone else who reads this decide what to make of it.

    It sounds like you will excuse everything that I might ask you to justify, so I will not go further. For you not to see that McDaniel is not saying other than that his Buddhist friend can go to heaven, not having known Jesus, shows that you are blind to the truth.

    Once again: “And if she is saved… in a way she is saved through Christ, even if that does not mean that she believes in Jesus.””

    So she is saved, according to McDaniel, EVEN IF she does NOT believe in Jesus. Nothing can be more obvious than what he is saying here. Sorry you don’t see it. Even McDaniel at least is not afraid of saying what he believes, but it is heretical nonetheless. I pray for him as well.

    By the way, pantheism = God IS everything.
    Panentheism – God is IN everything.

    Neither philosophy is compatible with scriptural teaching.

  9. i find some logic problems in McDaniels statement yes, but he did say- “she is saved through Christ”.

    moving on…

    You wrote,”….Panentheism – God is IN everything….Neither philosophy is compatible with scriptural teaching.”

    So you disagree with me when I said,

    “Did Jesus become one with his creation in the incarnation or not? Was Jesus not the second Adam, a fellow decedent from Adam, who was formed from the the very earth? Isn’t man’s connectedness to all creation evident in the fact that all of creation suffered because of the fall? Isn’t it even more evident that through Jesus, God incarnate into human being, that all creation will be one day redeemed?”

    Deny these things using the BIBLE only.

  10. Nathan,

    We can’t move on yet.

    Here is what he said… I’ll say it one more time:

    Once again: “And if she is saved… in a way she is saved through Christ, even if that does not mean that she believes in Jesus.””

    So if she does not believe in Jesus, is she still saved? How can that be, Nathan? It says in Acts:

    “Nor is there salvation in any other, for there is no other name under heaven given among men by which we must be saved.”

    How can she be saved, unless she believes in Jesus?

    Am I taking Acts 4:12 out of context?

    “Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved”.

  11. Emergents allow for a plurality of Scriptural interpretations. They challenge to re-think, re-analyze, re-interpret, and rewrite the Gospel and scripture interpretations to many possible relative meanings and applications. Biblical truths become vague, and almost scorned, replaced by universalistic and syncretistic themes that resemble mystical concepts, subtly and overtly.

    Proponents of the movement advocate a subjective view of doctrine in which they embrace a continual reexamination of and flexible approach to theology which causes them to see the faiths of all religions as a journey rather than a destination. Emergents claim to “hold in tension” even radical differences in doctrines and morals. Emergents see theology as an icon pointing to God rather than as a definition of God, they do not see any doctrinal expositions as definitive.

    Their universalistic concepts of “salvation” (that all the sincere find heaven) are usually regarded as “finding the god within you,” (Panentheism) and god is in everything (Pantheism) . Evangelistic church missions are regarded as a waste of time, and church believers in ages past, who died for their faith in Jesus Christ, are regarded as unnecessary zealots.

    “For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works,” 2 Corinthians 11: 13-15.

    “But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction,” 2 Peter 2:1

    “For false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect,” Matthew 24:24

    Thought I would contribute my small opinion.

  12. Manny,

    You make some good points Manny, but you mis-frame the nature of the argument. McDaniel, clearly says Jesus is the only way, he is just questioning how some might come to encounter Jesus as that way; thinking one might encounter the substance of Jesus perhaps without knowing his name.

    I think this argument is problematic too, but your argument against it looses focus on the issue. You would better critique this view with scripture talking about the necessity of faith in Christ for salvation on our end. Though one might argue that “faith” is bigger than just assenting belief.

    My criticism of you is not that you are with out any good points. My criticism is that you twist and exaggerate information to make your case stronger (or so you think). You add things to positions people aren’t taking and this isn’t right. This tactic lacks integrity becoming a disciple of Jesus.

    Now, back to my question concerning whether their are “pan-en-theistic” aspects to the Christian faith. This has very little to do with your other point about the necessity of belief and just explores whether whether God is present in his creation.

    So again,

    “Did Jesus become one with his creation in the incarnation or not? Was Jesus not the second Adam, a fellow decedent from Adam, who was formed from the the very earth? Isn’t man’s connectedness to all creation evident in the fact that all of creation suffered because of the fall? Isn’t it even more evident that through Jesus, God incarnate into human being, that all creation will be one day redeemed?”

  13. This is very sad, Nathan. McDaniel never says Jesus is the only way, clearly or unclearly!

    I ask you to to point out where in the video where he does say it. He does the opposite. He believes non-believers can get to heaven, never knowing the Lord Jesus Christ.

    It is clear to me you are using your own thinking, and instead ignore the clear scriptural teaching of what it means to be saved. What don’t you understand Nathan, about the scripture I quoted you. Was it out of context? I wasn’t just making some good points; I was giving you the clear scriptural teaching of how someone can be saved.

    You are creating some false arguments here, instead of understanding the plain teaching of scripture. I am not adding things to positions people aren’t taking- I am stating what he says himself! So your accusation of lack of integrity only part are absolutely without merit.

    I think you must be a big fan of McDaniel, to defend his defenseless positions so vigorously. As I said, how can you even consider someone a Christian, when he states a heretical view that those who don’t know Christ will go to heaven.

    I suggest you spend some time in the Bible, and read it to understand what it says to you, not what you want it to say to you.

    Praying for you

    Sincerely in Christ,
    Manny

  14. You wrote, “This is very sad, Nathan. McDaniel never says Jesus is the only way, clearly or unclearly! I ask you to to point out where in the video where he does say it. He does the opposite. He believes non-believers can get to heaven, never knowing the Lord Jesus Christ.”

    I didn’t watch the video, but going from your own quote of him here; “in a way she is saved through Christ, even if that does not mean that she believes in Jesus.”

    This is at least an “unclear” confession that this hypothetical person IS being saved through Christ. Again your statement that he is not clear or even unclear about Jesus being the way is just false. Another example of exaggerating the claims of you opponent to make him seem even more guilty.

    I hope I am not asking to much when I ask for some critical thinking here. The issue McDaniel is suggesting is not one that denies Jesus as the way, but one that questions how we come to Jesus. Again, I am not supporting his claim, but I understand what he is saying and what he isn’t.

    I concede your point on what we need to do to be saved on our end. But that is not the only thing you claim he is saying that you disagree with and thus call him a heretic.

    It sounds like you think if you can find someone guilty on one point you are free to tack on things he didn’t say or do because he is already guilty of being a “heretic”. Does finding one fault in a person give you license to pile on unwarranted condemnation?

    Why won’t you answer my question concerning your other accusations concerning pananthiesm?

    “Did Jesus become one with his creation in the incarnation or not? Was Jesus not the second Adam, a fellow decedent from Adam, who was formed from the the very earth? Isn’t man’s connectedness to all creation evident in the fact that all of creation suffered because of the fall? Isn’t it even more evident that through Jesus, God incarnate into human being, that all creation will be one day redeemed?”

    I want a biblical argument against these “pan-en-theistic” ideas if you can find them. If you can’t I think you need to retract some of what you said out of good Christian integrity.

    What you don’t seem to understand that your practice of piling on untruths discredits your good points and your over all credibility.

    Again, you make a good argument against the necessity of faith in Jesus on our end, but this is lost in the unfair way you condemn every syllable this person says.

    By the way I have no idea who Mr McDaniel is and I only know of him from reading your blog here.

    So please give me a biblical argument to the “pan-en-theistic” aspects to God found in the biblical themes i mentioned.

  15. Sorry Nathan. One of my recent decisions was to not get into pointless arguments or discussions. This is turning out to be one. It seems to me you are an apologist for someone who clearly teaches heresy- and you have not even seen the entire video? You ought to check it out- but for me, it was stomach turning to sit through the whole thing.

    Perhaps you should do that and see what this man is teaching- but it seems, you can’t even see from me pointing out the “saved Buddhist” issue, that he is unbiblical on that.

    So if you can’t even see that, I certainly won’t get into a fruitless discussion about your panentheism theory- which is also unbiblical.

    So we’ll end it here, because my main goal is to warn others about this heresy- not to continue in a long, unworthwhile argument.

    We’ll agree to disagree. I will continue to pray for you.

    Sincerely in Christ,

    Manny

  16. Manny, you seem to think that because you can show someone else is wrong, that makes you right by default. Just because you can find fault in these “heretics”, does not make you right. This circular reasoning about yourself verses the “heretics” may be part of why you come across so delusional.

    Also, how can I be an apologist for someone I don’t even know or know anything about. From what I have learned about him on here I have clearly disagreed with some of what he said and conceded to where you make a good point.

    Answering my question is only “fruitless” and “unworthwhile” if your goal is to defend yourself. Your not wanting to answer my question has nothing to do with defending God or the Bible.

    You say that this “panentheism theory- which is also unbiblical.”

    Back it up with the Bible- this is not too much to ask. Was what I said about Jesus unbiblical? if so show me.

    Im not asking for your opinion, I am asking for scripture. God promises that scripture “never comes back void”, so answering my question with scripture can not be “fruitless”.

  17. Nathan,

    Like Manny, I will not argue, but I hope this helps you find the truth to your questions you presented.

    Did Jesus become one with his creation in the incarnation or not?

    The God of the Bible created the universe out of nothing. The universe is not God nor an extension of Him, nor is He part of it. Nor is man, though in God’s image, an extension of God or part of God but a separate being entirely.

    Genesis 1:26-27 (KJV)
    26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
    27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

    Was Jesus not the second Adam, a fellow decedent from Adam, who was formed from the the very earth?

    Obviously, being made “in the image of God” has nothing to do with man’s physical form, for “God is a Spirit”. Man was made in the spiritual and moral image of God. God made man’s body from the “dust of the ground.” Man’s soul and spirit, however, are nonphysical.

    John 4:24 (KJV)
    24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

    Genesis 2:7 (KJV)
    7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.

    Isn’t man’s connectedness to all creation evident in the fact that all of creation suffered because of the fall?
    Isn’t it even more evident that through Jesus, God incarnate into human being, that all creation will be one day redeemed?

    As the progenitor of a new race of those who have been born again, Christ is also called the last Adam. Those redeemed by His blood to whom He has given eternal life as a free gift of His grace, will “never perish”. This is referring to mankind being redeemed and not all creation. (i.e. plant life, animals) God will create a new heaven and earth, but will not redeem it like he will mankind.

    1 Corinthians 15:45 (KJV)
    45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

    Ephesians 1:7 (KJV)
    7 In whom we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, according to the riches of his grace;

    Colossians 1:14 (KJV)
    14 In whom we have redemption through his blood, even the forgiveness of sins:

    Isaiah 66:22 (KJV)
    22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.

  18. Manny, I see that you did not allow my last comment. I had no idea that you were moderating comments so you could control them. I find it sad that you would ignore my comment so you can “win” the argument. Especially because I only asked you for scripture. Do you care about winning the argument or aligning yourself with biblical truth?

    I also find it interesting that you allow others to post heresy to defend your position. Brad’s comment is full of gnostic heresy that says that Jesus “being made “in the image of God” has nothing to do with man’s physical form, for “God is a Spirit”.

    brad wrote,

    “Obviously, being made “in the image of God” has nothing to do with man’s physical form, for “God is a Spirit”. Man was made in the spiritual and moral image of God. God made man’s body from the “dust of the ground.” Man’s soul and spirit, however, are nonphysical.”

    This is gnostic thought- and clear heresy. Jesus became a human being- it has everything to do with being phyisical and in the real world. Jesus represents the reconciliation of the spiritual with the physical. – that is why we believe in physical the resurrection. This is a heresy that has been fought all the way back to the 1st century; I can’t believe you would endorse it.

    If you allow this heresy to go unchecked then you have NO credibility of someone that can expose heresy!!

  19. I think Nathan needs to understand the definition of gnosticism before he starts throwing out false claims.

    Gnosticism taught that salvation is achieved through special knowledge (gnosis). This knowledge usually dealt with the individual’s relationship to the transcendent Being. It denies the incarnation of God as the Son. In so doing, it denies the true efficacy of the atonement since, if Jesus is not God, He could not atone for all of mankind and we would still be lost in our sins.

    In your zest to think you are trying to win an argument, which is not in my actions, you demonstrate your lack of knowledge of Scripture.

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