Don’t Show Them the Money: Maybe They Will Listen

Have I therefore become your enemy because I tell you the truth? Galatians 4:16 (NKJV)

I watched a Charles Stanley sermon several months ago, entitled “What You Believe- Does It Matter?”  Here is a short excerpt towards the end in regards to sending your child to college:

“And I want to say it again to parents.  You owe it to your children to teach them the truth of the word of God….It’s your responsibility as a parent to find out what does that school teach.  Do you want to spend 60 to 100,000 dollars getting your child educated in things that destroy them, instead of educating them in things that build them up and strengthen them and make them godly? Where you send your kids to school is a very important thing….they want freedom to choose.  But freedom that is knowledgeable, freedom that is intelligible, freedom that knows the truth about a school, and about the president, and what they teach and what they don’t teach.”

This reminded me of what I had mentioned in a post last year, which was not well received by some, including a few pastors.  That article I wrote ended up leading to a major turning point for the future of me and my family.  It was a critique of Dr. Tom Oord and his lecture at Eastern Nazarene College.  Dr. Oord teaches the heresy (yes, heresy) of open theism, and as a Christian parent with a future college child or two, I did not take kindly to this ideology he is indoctrinating students with, nor to the fact that he was speaking at Eastern Nazarene, nor to the fact that the leadership at the school welcomed him and apparently agree with, or at least tolerate with, this heretical teaching.

I recall that I made some people very unhappy just for simply suggesting that they call or write, and ask questions of the ENC leadership, if they were concerned.  It continues to amaze me, how those who claim to be the “understanding ones”, the ones open to all ideas and beliefs, the so-called “Big Tent” people, are the very ones who try to silence or intimidate any Christian who has serious concerns about a school’s teachings and who ask questions and want straight answers!  These “understanding ones”, the post-modern types, are the very people who one minute promote an open dialog and an embrace of tolerance for all viewpoints, but then turn around and slander you!  But there is no doubt that these tolerant ones are really the intolerant ones.  And they are like that simply because they are trying to defend their biblically indefensible ideologies that they espouse at our Christian universities.  They know who they are, and I expect at least a few of them will get a little meaner and nastier if they manage to finish reading this.  I can understand it, however, because they have no other substantive defense for their ideology.

But I think we need to go a step further beyond just continually asking questions, which most likely will not be answered, or answered adequately.  I have concluded that the power of the checkbook is the only way to get some heads turning at these schools that are letting in all sorts of aberrant teachings whose source is clearly not God, but from satan.  They are apparently comfortable with the idea that it’s more important to expose our kids to false teachers and teachings, than to protect them from what might lead them away from the faith.  Hence  barely a word said about guest speakers like universalist Jay McDaniel (at Northwest Nazarene University) who claims to be a Christian.  Or Tony Campolo who is shamelessly embraced at ENC by Nazarene pastors and school leaders while he spouts his mysticism, his support for the homosexual lifestyle as compatible with Christianity, and his occultic doctrines of demons.  And our premier theological seminary, NTS, reflects the same occultic tendencies as Campolo does, by providing a course in Celtic spirituality, which is a system that is nothing but a perversion of true Christianity.  There is Point Loma Nazarene University, with its ill-advised support and promotion of Richard Foster and his contemplative mysticism; and Trevecca Nazarene University and its promotion of prayer labyrinths, Roman Catholic monastic mysticism, and practicing the silence.  I could go on and on, including the teaching of theistic evolution, which is totally incompatible with biblical teaching, and contradicts the words of Jesus Christ Himself!

For the Nazarenes who know what’s going on and support all this stuff, you cannot with a straight face tell me that some of what is happening is from our heritage of Nazarene holiness teaching, or even from a Wesleyan tradition, which you often reference, but which you often misquote and twist.  So perhaps more parents, alumni, and even churches and districts, may need to start sending a message, that their dollars will no longer go to these schools, until they straighten their act out.  I believe some have already done this.  I also have heard testimony that some individuals have paid a price for standing up against these practices and ideas.  So, if asking questions politely does not even merit a substantive response, perhaps politely but firmly telling them that enough is enough, and they won’t get a dime anymore, might work.

Perhaps some parents might want to demand a refund from these schools, because of false advertising.  “Prayer labyrinths, monastic mysticism, practicing the silence, evolution, open theism is not what I signed up my daughter or son to learn!  Please return my money.”

Unless you don’t see any problem with any of the things I and others have clearly reported on and documented, I believe it is Christian negligence and disobedience to God if you DO know there is a serious problem, and do absolutely nothing and turn a blind eye to this.  If someone knows that their child’s future or current Christian college is allowing or promoting false teachings, or allowing false teachers to come into the school unchallenged, to brainwash their children, they have a Christian obligation to say or do something about it.

And if you are willing to risk your child’s eternal salvation, just because it’s always been the school you supported, I think you need to pray about this.  If you are very worried about these things, ask God for the strength and the words to challenge the leadership, and the board of directors at these schools, until they start listening to you, until they do something about the heresies being welcomed and embraced.  If that does not work, perhaps we need to start asking the Lord to shut down these schools, for the sake of our children.

There is hope for some of these schools that have not gone too far off the deep end yet.  But some of these others that I have mentioned apparently have swallowed the poison cup of apostasy and are in critical condition, on spiritual life support.  And they will not care a bit no matter how much you complain, unless the threat of loss of money is hanging over their heads.  Oh, they may send you a nice form letter back, thanking you and stating that the school is committed to the ideals of our denomination and the “stated” mission of the school. Then they turn right around again and continue with the transformation of the school into something that is a breeding ground for future pastors that do not even believe in the entire word of God.  So I believe that the only practical weapon remaining is the power of the checkbook, in addition to the ultimate power of the Holy Spirit to change hearts and minds.  Saying  “God is in control, don’t worry, let Him take care of it”, does not absolve us of our Christian responsibility to do and say something.

Each one of us- individually, not collectively- is accountable to God.  And one day, each and every one of us will answer to God in His presence, for all the things we did or DID NOT DO.  If anyone thinks that it is only the overt acts of a Christian that will be judged by God, heed the words of Ezekiel 33:7-9.

Some of you remember the movie with Tom Cruise and his famous line: “Show me the money.”  You see, the bottom line for him was the money.  Well, some of us have come to the conclusion that the bottom line for these universities and colleges is the money.  And what will assist in improving their hearing is a good old fashioned statement from a lot of parents, or from an entire church or district:

“Change your ways.  Enough is enough.  You will not get a dime from us until your school reflects the true values and doctrines of the denomination whose name you carry.  Otherwise, we will not show you the money, and we will not send our children to this school.”

“I have set watchmen on your walls, O Jerusalem; They shall never hold their peace day or night.

You who make mention of the LORD, do not keep silent.” (Isaiah 62:6)

– – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –– – – – – – – – – – SFT Extra:  – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – – –

Below is a 10 minute summary of Dr. Jay McDaniel speaking at Northwest Nazarene University in 2008.  Please watch it.  Contrary to objections that have been made, I saw no evidence that this lecture was for nothing else than to further indoctrinate students into a pluralist and universalistic type thinking, and this should be a sober reminder of what will continue to happen at our Christian universities, if we stay silent.

28 responses to “Don’t Show Them the Money: Maybe They Will Listen

  1. Thanks for sharing Manny. You are an encouragement to me. I pray that God will open the eyes of my former church members to the heresy that is going on!

  2. Manny:

    Thanks again for an article reporting the facts exposing what is going on in our institutes of higher learning which will have a deadly future effect on our church, as presently being witnessed, that we may never recover from as a denomination unless a change takes place. How our leaders can remain silent for the most part is a mystery to me, unless they have bought into this themselves?

    Influence for good or evil is a powerful tool and knows no bounds. When we allow Scripture to be twisted and package it as truth we are on a path that can only lead to destruction regardless of one’s intention. A good example of this is found in your related posts: “Where To Find The Absolute Truth About You,” under PLNU.

    In the article “The seductive Poison of Apostasy,” by Eric Barger, as stated in his artice 180. Eric quotes the book opening with an introductory statement, “Even though we’re not out to change your mind on anything, we hope to stretch it a little.” When you compare it to all the double talk that casts doubt on the Word of God and to who some of the contributing authors are, you immediately conclude this statement is false.

    I am sure there are a lot of church members who sit in Nazarene Churches Sunday after Sunday and do not know what is or isn’t being taught in our Universities today and the damage it is, and will cause. Perhaps like most long term Nazarenes we blindly trusted our leaders, and our message of Holiness, never suspecting the departure, from truth, that is taking place could ever happen. My prayer is that articles such as this one will begin to open minds to the truth and they will begin to ask questions and demand answers.

    I trust and pray that 2011 will be the year of victory.

  3. Open Theism is not heretical. It doesn’t contradict any point of the ancient creeds of the church.

    The debate is about the nature of the future not the nature of God. The question is ‘is the future at least partially open or is it closed?’. Open Theists completely believe in God’s omniscience. They just ask the question, ‘what is the nature of the future that God knows?’. If its nature is to be at least partially open then God knows it as such. Anything else would be to contradict logic and reality. Like God knowing Square Circles.

    It doesn’t diminish God’s sovereignty in the slightest to say that God knows the future as it is.

    Now you may disagree with the statement that the future is partially open. But those who think that are hardly heretics. How could ones view of the nature of the future constitute a heresy? As I have said above, not one of the important ancient creeds has anything to say about this whatsoever.

  4. Who said anything about the creeds? Open theism is heresy because it contradicts the word of God itself and contradicts the omniscience and complete sovereignty of God. It contradicts prophesy. How can God know what is going to happen in the future, unless He knows all of it?

    And so is Process Theology a heresy- that God learns from His mistakes. Do you also believe that God learns from His mistakes also?

  5. Why do people want to cast God in their image? Past, present, and future bind us, not God.

    Scripture shows God to be the eternal I AM. That sounds to me that each and every moment is available as if in the present tense to God.

    We see a page at a time, He sees the whole book.

    Back on topic though. You are right about not funding the poison of heresy, but if things run to course, we are likely to see continued denial of wrong doing, continued derision (and stepped up) of those adhering to the truth, and even more extreme measures of unbiblical teaching before the institutions of learning either return to faithfulness or collapse,

  6. I don’t know much about Process Theology. I do know that it is not all related to Open Theism (though it shares some similarities. Similarities necessarily show a relationship eg Calvinism and Islam have similarities with regard to God ordaining things).

    You say that it contradicts:

    Omniscience = God knows everything – Open Theists believe that.

    Sovereignity = Even outside of Open Theism there is debate amongst Christians as to what that exactly means. A Calvinist would say that God ordains all, an Arminian would say that God knew things would happen but didn’t necessarily choose for them to happen. Sovereignity is about Control. Calvinists and Arminians disagree about the nature of His control. Open Theists have a different view again. My point is that sovereignty has divergent views amongst Christians.

    I don’t know about Mistakes – but scripture makes clear that God learns eg when God says to Abraham about how He now knows that Abraham loves Him because he was willing to sacrifice Isaac.

    Prophesy = How does Open Theism contradict that? God ordains what He wants to come to pass and then is around when the time comes to bring it to pass.

    I don’t mean to get into debate (though it seems that I am reading my above comments). But truly, it just isn’t helpful to call Open Theists heretics. There is already a divergence of points of view on God’s omniscience between Calvinists and Arminians – most Christians in either camp still think of the other as Christian still and not heretics. Open Theism is merely another position on the nature of the future.

  7. Sorry I made a typo above — instead of writing “Similarities necessarily show a relationship eg Calvinism and Islam have similarities with regard to God ordaining things” – I should have wrote:

    “Similarities DON’T necessarily show a relationship eg Calvinism and Islam have similarities with regard to God ordaining things”

  8. God knows all, (past, present and future) according to scripture, so open theism is heresy. Believe the word of God, not the words of men and their vain imaginations:

    Psalm 139 is a great testament to His omniscience:

    1 O LORD, You have searched me and known me.
    2 You know my sitting down and my rising up;
    You understand my thought afar off.
    3 You comprehend my path and my lying down,
    And are acquainted with all my ways.
    4 For there is not a word on my tongue,
    But behold, O LORD, You know it altogether.
    5 You have hedged me behind and before,
    And laid Your hand upon me.
    6 Such knowledge is too wonderful for me;
    It is high, I cannot attain it.

    7 Where can I go from Your Spirit?
    Or where can I flee from Your presence?
    8 If I ascend into heaven, You are there;
    If I make my bed in hell, behold, You are there.
    9 If I take the wings of the morning,
    And dwell in the uttermost parts of the sea,
    10 Even there Your hand shall lead me,
    And Your right hand shall hold me.
    11 If I say, “Surely the darkness shall fall[a] on me,”
    Even the night shall be light about me;
    12 Indeed, the darkness shall not hide from You,
    But the night shines as the day;
    The darkness and the light are both alike to You.

    13 For You formed my inward parts;
    You covered me in my mother’s womb.
    14 I will praise You, for I am fearfully and wonderfully made;[b]
    Marvelous are Your works,
    And that my soul knows very well.
    15 My frame was not hidden from You,
    When I was made in secret,
    And skillfully wrought in the lowest parts of the earth.
    16 Your eyes saw my substance, being yet unformed.
    And in Your book they all were written,
    The days fashioned for me,
    When as yet there were none of them.

    If you cannot trust that God knows the future, how can you believe in prophesy?

  9. Psalm 139:4 “Before a word is on my tongue you know it completely, O LORD…All the days ordained for me were written in your book before one of them came to be.”
    Isaiah 46:10 “I make known the end from the beginning, from ancient times, what is still to come. I say: My purpose will stand, and I will do all that I please. “
    Psalm 33:11 “But the plans of the LORD stand firm forever, the purposes of his heart through all generations.”

    With regard to open theism, how can God predict intricate details in the Old Testament about Jesus Christ if He does not know the future? How can God in any manner guarantee our eternal salvation if He does not know what the future holds?

    Process theology does not consider the Bible to be inspired or to be our final authority, and it denies the deity of Christ. You can’t get much more heretical.

  10. Tim,

    Psalms 139, that Manny points out clearly shows the incorrectness of “Open Theism” as any vital use in the Church other than to cause confusion and cast doubt about God and who God is. I hope that you will prayerfully consider comments below.

    In a world where we are bombarded with so much false teaching, it is becoming ever harder for spiritual seekers to find truth that they can put their trust in. If God doesn’t know the future then how can things prophesied come true? Let’s put Open Theism to the test using a formula assigning probabilities of each detail of the prediction (or prophecy) from a skeptics point of view.

    In an article written by Rabbi David Bottlieb on “Truth of Predictions” uses Deuteronomy 28-30 as his example of the prediction of what would happen to the Jewish people if they did not live up to the standards of the Torah.

    God warned that for their unfaithfulness they would be punished, and foretold of the events that would follow. As an example of some of the things to follow: God foretold of their exile resulting in a world-wide scattering of the Jewish people. They would have no independent government, and finally the Jewish people would survive, and ultimately return to the land of Israel.

    An outside observer could try and explain the prophecy away by using another point or view other than that of the Torah. They might rationale that everyone gets conquered sooner or later and assign it a probablity factor per the possibility of the events ever occuring.

    As an example the Rabbi used the following factors that a skeptic might use to show the ratio of it ever happening. He selected five predictions and assigned a probablity factor to each. His formula used 1/10 * 1/4 * 1/10 * 1/4 * 1/10. When you multiply the factors you come up with a probablity of 1/16000. The likelihood to the skeptic of this ever coming true is one chance in every sixteen thousand times. But it happened just as the Bible said it would over thousands of years.

    Consider this in the OT there are over 300 Messianic prophecies concerning Jesus that coved every aspect of His life. Example, Michah prophesied 700 years earlier that Jesus would be born in Bethlehem. Now count all the events that surround this and assign a probablity factor to each of them.

    Jeremiah 1000 years before His birth said that He would be born of the lineage of King David. Again assign a factor to each event that had to occur for this to happen.

    I think you get the point. Now take all 300 prophecies about Jesus going all the way back to Genesis and assign a probablity factor to each event surrounding this ever happening as foretold. The ratio would be staggering and probably would be one to several million or even billion of it ever happening.

    Yet they all came true, everyone of them, without error of prophecy. Now I ask, does God not know the future?

  11. I have dealt with the heresy of Open Theism in many of my theology classes at Nazarene Bible College, and my grades suffered on many papers because I would not buckle to the heretical teachings of my professors.

    Some have stated that “Open Theists” believe in the omniscience of God, this is just a perfect example of Neo-Orthodox teachings in the Church of the Nazarene. The Neo-Orthodox people have redefined “omniscience” to be “God knows all things…….that can be known, and since the future is not knowable God does not know it.” (direct quote from my open theist professor from NBC, Dr. Charles Christian) This is what happens when we reject the full inerrancy of God’s Word and elevate Tradition (Creeds), Experience (I don’t know everything), and Reason (it is impossible to know the future).

    All of the verses that demonstrate that God knows the future are easily explained away by the open theists because they just say, “we don’t believe the Bible to be error free”; therefore Psalm 139, and the such are easily explained away.


    Also, one way the denomination makes sure they are “shown the money” is when a church does not pay its ‘budgets’ for an extended amount of time the denomination can say that the church is in “crisis” and according to the manual assume control of the church (new pastor, new board, etc). We need to remember that when we give money we are partakers in what the denomination promotes and will be held accountable with them especially once we know what they are promoting.

    Grace and Peace

  12. As for the topic of Manny’s post, I thought I’d just share a bit of testimony. Whether you believe it supports or undermine’s Manny’s assertions is up to you. I’m a 36-year-old Nazarene pastor, a life-long Nazarene, and the son of a Nazarene pastor. I can remember hearing Tony Campolo speak to Nazarene audiences back when I was in high school. He was controversial then, and he continues to be controversial today. I’ve always liked what he has to say, even when I disagree with him. When I was at ONU, we studied young-earth creationism vs. theistic evolution in a Master’s level class taught by the head of the religion department. We saw how young-earth creationism is both bad science and bad theology. I remember reading about Open Theism (which I liked, because it seems to take Scripture seriously) and Process Theology (which I didn’t like, because it did not seem to take Scripture seriously) while a student at NTS… though I don’t recall actually taking a class that dealt with either one.

    I mention all this to say that these things are not brand new in the Church of the Nazarene. If you believe them to be signs of its corruption and demise, then they are signs that have been there for at least the past 20 years.

  13. Tim,
    Your philosophy is nothing more the subtlety of the serpent…clever, yes, but venomous. It is designed to cause one to doubt in the omniscient God of past, present and future. Manny, I wouldn’t even publish these thoughts; for fear that someone may drink of this poison.

  14. Tony Camolo is a false teacher, Rich. He promotes occultic practices (Celtic spirituality), which is now going to be taught at our wonderful seminary. He does mantra like prayer every morning. He and his wife support the idea that the homosexual lifestyle is okay. On an on.

    How sad that you cannot recognize a false teacher such as him.

    You have no defense for open theism or process theology, or else you would have presented it.

  15. Rich said, “When I was at ONU, we studied young-earth creationism vs. theistic evolution in a Master’s level class taught by the head of the religion department. We saw how young-earth creationism is both bad science and bad theology.”

    This would be a nice full disclosure statement on the front of the College or University’s websites then laypeople would not feel tricked or duped by the Universities and Seminary that they have financially supported.

    I vote for telling the truth on the FRONT PAGE Websites of the Universities, Seminaries, and Churches. If this has been going on for 20-30 years then it’s time the laymen knew about it.

    Parents and students can make up their own mind if they care about sending their children to “Christian Universities” that don’t believe the Bible, in Jesus or what ever is in vogue.

    Families can make up their own mind if they want to attend churches where the Senior Pastor and Youth Minister doesn’t believe the Bible is true.

  16. Pastor Joe is so correct. I refuse to allow your link to a false teacher remain on my blog, Rich- so I have removed it.

    And your refusal to say whether Tony Campolo is a false teacher or not, speaks to a problem of many pastors being either asleep in the pulpit, or who agree with these false teachings.

    The NNU chaplain also had some things to say here recently- but when challenged by someone to give his opinion of Jay McDaniel- he never came back to answer either way.

    Such is the sad state of affairs in our denomination. I am at the TruthXChange thinktank in CA this week, and every single thing covered so far has applied to the COTN. How awfully sad this reality is- that our denomination is going from holiness to heresy.

    Just remember- those who are in leadership positions will have a lot more to answer to God- if they allow this to go on.

  17. There are many, including well-regarded scientists, who would say that theistic evolution is both bad science and bad theology.

  18. With all due respect to Pastor Joe and to you Manny for all you do to stand on the Truth of God’s Word, I feel that it may be the wrong move to remove Rich’s link. First off let me say that I understand exactly where you and Joe are coming from, however one thing I love about your sight is that you have never had a problem stating the facts including the defenses given by false teachers. I do not believe it would hurt anything to show the link for the purpose of doing what you have always done here, let people here the words of false teachers from their own mouths. Plus I doubt any reasons these people give for supporting open theism will stand up against the Word of God. That is just my two cents. It is of course your blog to do what you want with. Keep fighting the good fight.


  19. I quit NBC in 1994 because of all this unbiblical teaching. As Paster Bjerke stated grades are given according to ones openness or acceptance of the material presented not based on a critical biblical analysis or dissenting position. This includes anything at the masters level. I have all the text books and tactics that taught Rich and others to be a bible sceptics instead of Bible Believers. This is not something new, just finally getting attention.

    If I wasn’t a Christian I would sue NBC for a refund of my money plus damages for pretending to be a “bible” college.

  20. Pam,
    The mystery Wikipedia writer that edited that portion that you are referring to was Bob Hunter.

    He goes by PlungeBob or PlungeFaith as his identification.
    Here is a YouTube link of him.

  21. Here are some thoughts from a Wesleyan himself (John Wesley), which seems to contradict Dr. Grider:

    “Nay, if there be any mistakes in the Bible, there may as well be a thousand. If there be one falsehood in that book, it did not come from the God of truth” (John Wesley, Journal, 24 July 1776).

    “Nay, will not the allowing there is any error in Scripture, shake the authority of the whole?” (Works, Jackson ed., 9:150).

    “Try all things by the written word, and let all bow down before it. You are in danger of [fanaticism] every hour, if you depart ever so little from Scripture; yea, or from the plain, literal meaning of an text, taken in connection with the context.” (Works, 11:429).

    “Do you so believe? Prove your own self by the infallible Word of God. If you do not have the fruits, effects, or inseparable properties of faith, you do not have faith.” The John Wesley Reader, by Al Bryant, Word Books, 1983

    “The general rule of interpreting Scripture is this: the literal sense of every text is to be taken, if it be not contrary to some other texts. But in that case, the obscure text is to be interpreted by those which speak more plainly”(Letter to Samuel Furly, 10 May, 1755).

    Sounds like a biblical inerrantist to me. Did Dr. Grider miss these and more? I do not hold up Wesley as someone whose word I take no matter what, because even he can make mistakes, but just these few statements alone refute the idea that he himself did not believe in the infallible word of God. And if he did not, we ought to reject his words also. But he didbelieve in biblical ineranny. The revisionists try as they may, cannot refute his own words.

  22. Dr. Grider talks in circles.

    On page 56 of Wesleyan Theological Journal Volume 19, 2 — Fall — 1984 you can see this very clearly.

    Dr Grider’s key words are “might imply”,

    “Luke’s statement that “Jesus kept increasing in wisdom” (Luke 2:52) as well as in “stature”
    might imply that in His humanity as a lad, He gradually corrected earlier faulty understandings.

    What I am saying is that Scripture and the church have taught unequivocally that Christ was
    sinless, not that He was totally errorless on unimportant matters. And I am saying that if one
    were to say that the Scriptures were totally without errors, even on inconsequential matters
    where doctrine and practice are not involved, we would be saying something more select about
    them than the Scriptures and the church have usually expressed about our God—Man Savior

    This was 1984 and now we have entire books in the Bible that can’t be trusted.

  23. HAHAHA: Thanks for putting up the PlungeBob Square pants video I needed a good laugh today.
    I put this buffoons video up on my site because this is the reason we do what we do. Bob is a poster boy for our cause.
    Ask Manny how good of a imitation I do of good ole Bob.
    I’m thinking about quitting drumming and take my Bob act on the road

  24. PS: The really strange thing about Bob is that he claims to be a voice for the Nazarene denomination.
    But he no longer even attends a Nazarene church.
    He attends a Foursquare church
    Go figure

  25. In response to PlungeBob concerning Dr. Diehl:

    The emergent church is New Age:


    I don’t know what PlungeBob is talking about.

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