Advice To Love Wins LGBT And Andy McGee: Remember The Ninth Commandment

“Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.” James 3:1

There is a sense of greater responsibility and accountability when a pastor accuses someone of lying, especially in public.  A pastor is not just any ordinary person, according to Scripture.  He is expected to be a role model, and a good example to others of Christ-like behavior.  Care must be taken that an accusation is supported with facts, otherwise the harm to the accused can have damaging and unfair repercussions.  Many of you reading this have experienced such damaging repercussions. This is about accountability of a public figure for his public statements.  This is about discernment.  This is about honesty. This is about calling out professing Christians in order to seek correction of their errors; nothing more.  I pray that this account will be used by the Holy Spirit to touch Andy McGee’s conscience and show him the truth.

False Accusations

On July 15, Andy McGee, the leader of the Love Wins:LGBT posted on his FaceBook page a statement that accused three people of posting lies about his ministry.  He called out Dr. Everett Piper, president of Oklahoma Wesleyan University, for posting screenshots that he says were “wildly taken out of context.”   He then brought a Nazarene pastor into the mix, Jeff Allen, who wrote a critique using the same screenshots of Andy’s statements, and Andy stated that the pastor does not like Andy or his ministry. He then pointed out that I also posted the same information on my blog (which I did).  And then came the accusation (the full text at end of article):

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And so the leader of Love Wins:LGBT wants to refute the “lies”.  On Tuesday, July 25, I posted a question to Andy in that same thread.  I asked Andy when he may be writing his rebuttal to the “lies” that have been written about him.  Soon after, I was blocked by Andy, and he deleted my question. In the same post, he says that he has reached out to “each of these men”; but after asking him a pretty reasonable question, he blocked me.

Andy recently unblocked me so that he could tag me with a new post that he published. (I am however prevented from responding to anything he says). He wrote that he is praying for the three men he has accused of lying.  However, he has yet to either support his claim, or apologize for his accusation.  Here is part of what he wrote in this new post:

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What Will Andy Do?

It seems to me that the leader of Love Wins:LGBT is in a difficult situation.  If he never writes his rebuttal, he fails to show how any of these three men are liars, yet his accusation still remains for all to see on his page.  If he does write a rebuttal, how will he do it, since he would be rebutting his own words?  I don’t believe that Andy McGee, an ordained pastor in the Church of the Nazarene, ever intends to rebut any “lies.”  He cannot, because his very words are what were posted!  See the post Sounding The Alarm to read what he himself has said about various matters that are in question.  And keep in mind, this group is getting the support of their district as well as from the leaders of the denomination.

Retiring General Superintendent JK Warrick suggested at a district assembly recently that Andy should probably seek some kind of approval before posting anything on his website.  Is Andy that reckless that he needs prior approval before making statements about his ministry?   I actually agree with that assessment. It was also disappointing that Dr. Warrick called out Dr. piper for stating his concerns about the ministry of Love Wins:LGBT, a concern shared by many Nazarenes and other Christians.  I would like to know what any of the current active General Superintendents feel about the appropriateness of the Love Wins_LGBT agenda, including their inappropriate exhibit at General Assembly.

It is also very disappointing that Andy McGee and other ordained pastors in the Church of the Nazarene have gone after Dr. Piper and Rev. Jeff Allen for simply posting the very words of Andy McGee and stating their opinions as to the appropriateness and purpose of that ministry.  There are few people in such leadership positions as Dr. Piper that I have a great respect for.  Hardly anyone wants to tackle such difficult issues of our time anymore, yet Dr. Piper is willing to do that, and he does it with sound biblical reasoning.  Yet we see on his page countless examples of crude, insulting personal attacks by “pastors” who cannot reason using God’s word.

They then attack Rev. Jeff Allen, a courageous pastor, for also posting the very words of Andy McGee and giving his biblical opinion.  If we had more principled pastors throughout the denomination who were not afraid to speak the truth, perhaps the Church of the Nazarene would be in much better shape.  Sadly, way too many pastors are silent about these issues. 

Yet those same pastors who criticize us fail to justify Andy’s support of same-sex marriage activists, or his applause of National Coming Out Day, or his approval of the Gay Christian Network conference, or his approval of two female homosexual activists who are married.  Why is that?  I believe they are angry that “the light has exposed the darkness”, and the true agenda of Love Wins:LGBT is coming out (no pun intended). 

Why Can’t “Yes” Be Yes, and “No” Be No, For Andy And His Followers?

On the same thread that Andy wrote his promise to “rebut the lies”, we see a question asked of Andy:

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Andy’s reply was quite predictable:

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The word of the year seems to be: polity.  “Yes, we are in line with the polity of…and blah blah blah” is now the standard, template response to every pointed and direct question asked of Love Wins:LGBT.  It’s defenders use the same language in their support of Love Wins.  You cannot get them to answer a question with clarity. When you read the thread, it is almost as if the question was horrible and unreasonable, and yet, it simply is asking for clarity!  But there will be no clarity for a while, because when it finally comes, then the unmasking will happen, and even the gullible Nazarene leaders will have to admit: the Love Wins:LGBT  ministry is a deceptive fraud.

If you read the thread, you will see some of Andy’s supporters, including Rev. Antonie Holleman, chief writer of the five Holland papers on homosexuality that will soon be translated and sent out for you to come to your own conclusions about the Holland leadership and their homosexuality agenda.  Holleman and other supporters vigorously defend Love Wins_LGBT, even while others are excoriating anyone who dares to question this organization’s intentions.  Instead, the modus operandi is always the same: false accusations and demonization of truth tellers, and certainly this latest one takes the cake!  To accuse someone of lies, when that person simply repeated the very words spoken by the accuser? Surely that takes lots of chutpza!

Did God’s Word Tell A Lie Also?

 And then we see another accusation by Love Wins:LGBT, but this time they went after God’s word itself.  One of the resolutions at General Assembly, CA-724 was passed which simply stated that all people are born male or female.  This is pretty obvious, is a reflection of the biblical account, and I shardly needed to be stated in the Nazarene Manual!  Love Wins:LGBT’s position, however, is that God was wrong about this, and that the Bible did not get it right.  There is apparently a third gender called intersex, which refutes what the Bible says. For some bizarre reason, the resolution was later rescinded and slated for “further study” by the General Superintendents.  (We know what happened in 2013 with the Human Sexuality statement, don’t we, when it was tabled for further study).  This is yet another capitulation to the homosexuality agenda.

Here is how Love Wins:LGBT stated their objections:

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So the apparent position of Love Wins:LGBT is that any claim that God created only male and female and nothing else, is a “plainly seen, easily identified, and blatant lie.”  These are the very words of the leadership team of this organization.  And yet, they are allowed to promulgate this nonsense and much more, and now more recently at their district assembly in Kansas City, with the blessings of the district leadership.  What does this say about discernment and leaders making right decisions?  And this leads me to a final note about all this.

What This Is Really All About

This ultimately is not about Andy McGee, or Love Wins:LGBT.  This is about a holiness denomination that has been taking the wrong turn multiple times over the last several decades, and now has ended up going further down a dark alley. And yet, this ministry is setting a dangerous precedent, and I believe it is surely becoming a powerful influence within the Church of the Nazarene. I can almost see four years from now: Andy’s organization will not be the only one at General Assembly with the rainbow colors of the homosexual affirmation movement.  Oh no, my friends.  This is just the beginning… of the end.

So where is the leadership, and what are they saying about all this?  Hey, I don’t know.  Let me know when you find them, they don’t speak to me anymore.  One thing is for sure: they are in some ways responsible for allowing the enabling of this group and letting them take hold of much of the discussion about the Church of the Nazarene and its future.  The topic of homosexuality should not be the central topic of conversation in the church, but apparently it is in good running to be just that.

This is What You Ought To Do, Andy

Andy, if you are reading this, you have publicly charged three men of posting lies about you; a very serious charge indeed.  So I await your rebuttal of the “lies.”  I also would like to understand how anyone took your own statements “wildly out of context.”  This is what you promised to do.  You need to at least keep your word.

 Otherwise, you need to repent for your own sake, and apologize to those you have maligned with your public words.  I do not hate you.  I do not even dislike you.  Believe it or not, I care about you, Andy. This is not a personal thing; it is a matter of accountability.  I urge you to repent of what you are doing, stop hiding your agenda behind pre-programmed answers, and be completely honest with the people.

Manny Silva

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6 responses to “Advice To Love Wins LGBT And Andy McGee: Remember The Ninth Commandment

  1. Thank you, Manny! I love the way you close this. I hope that Andy will repent & do those things proper for repentance. If he does publicly apologize, that would be wonderful. If he doesn’t, you will know where he chooses to stand. You’ll see him for what he is even more so by how he responds to this.

    Blessings, Vicky

    Sent from my iPhone

    >

  2. It’s very frustrating when I see comment after comment with people, including myself, asking for clarity & all we get is an unsatisfactory cookie-cutter answer. It’s more frustrating when I ask Andy questions & others jump in & try to reply for him. Within the
    thread, people said that others want an inquisition, someone mentioned that people want Andy crucified, & someone else called me a troll (just because I had legitimate concerns). The people who speak in support of Andy, (on his own Facebook post), range from excusers to verbal abusers. It’s very disappointing & disheartening to those who are asking simple questions for clarity of a ministry. I’d think they’d be happy to share about the vision of their ministry & be thrilled that others are genuinely interested. In my case, I wanted reassurance that the ministry wasn’t leading to affirmation of sin within the Nazarene Church. Rather than try to allay my fears, many spoke very dishonorably & disrespectfully to me.
    Disappointing words to me from
    “Love Wins”.

  3. I had been defending him until I read his post stating that male and female as defined in the Bible is a lie. That just blows me away. I can’t even imagine my gay children or friends disagreeing with that. I mean unless you are talking about a hermaphrodite there is only male and female. And even if that is your position the parents have to choose the sex for the child, still male and female are the only choices.

  4. Have asked questions many times to these people and no answer. I charge thee therefore before God, and the Lord Jesus Christ, who shall judge the quick and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom; Preachthe word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove; rebuke; exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. For the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but after their own lust shall they heap to themselves teachers, having itching ears. But watch thou in all things, endure afflictions, do the work of an evangelist, make full proof of thy ministry. 1 Timothy 4:1-5

  5. What I am writing may seem harsh, but it is not meant to be. The Apostle Paul, in his second letter to the Thessalonians gives this warning about the end times and evil seducing spirits that will come upon the church. 2 Thessalonians [2: 3, 9 – 12] “Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition. The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved. And for this reason God will send them strong delusions, that they should believe the lie, that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.”

    In the absence of moral guidance immoral practices flourish. Those who practice immorality do not want to acknowledge God, nor obey His word; therefore, they behave like their father the devil. This is why, laws, can be passed and they can ignore the moral commandments of God, replacing them with their own that serves their sinful interests. This is why acts such as LGBT lifestyles, abortions, etc. can take place without shame, because they see themselves as god setting their own moral standards.

    Jesus gave even a greater severe warning concerning those who profane His word instructing His followers concerning those carelessly treating His word who have no real interest in obeying God’s Word. Matthew [7:6] “Do not give what is holy to the dogs; nor cast your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn and tear you in pieces.” Hall’s commentary had this to say about this Scripture. “Do not impart the holy things of God, the divine mysteries of salvation, unto profane and irreligious and malicious scorners; neither do ye cast away the most precious counsels and ordinances of God upon filthy persons, who are resolved to wallow in their known uncleanness; lest they do both contemn those sacred institutions, and return, unto you scoffs, indignities, persecutions.” (Contemn means to look down on) Are we witnessing some of this behavior today, I think so?

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