Advice To Love Wins LGBT And Andy McGee: Remember The Ninth Commandment

“Not many of you should become teachers, my fellow believers, because you know that we who teach will be judged more strictly.” James 3:1

There is a sense of greater responsibility and accountability when a pastor accuses someone of lying, especially in public.  A pastor is not just any ordinary person, according to Scripture.  He is expected to be a role model, and a good example to others of Christ-like behavior.  Care must be taken that an accusation is supported with facts, otherwise the harm to the accused can have damaging and unfair repercussions.  Many of you reading this have experienced such damaging repercussions. This is about accountability of a public figure for his public statements.  This is about discernment.  This is about honesty. This is about calling out professing Christians in order to seek correction of their errors; nothing more.  I pray that this account will be used by the Holy Spirit to touch Andy McGee’s conscience and show him the truth.

False Accusations

On July 15, Andy McGee, the leader of the Love Wins:LGBT posted on his FaceBook page a statement that accused three people of posting lies about his ministry.  He called out Dr. Everett Piper, president of Oklahoma Wesleyan University, for posting screenshots that he says were “wildly taken out of context.”   He then brought a Nazarene pastor into the mix, Jeff Allen, who wrote a critique using the same screenshots of Andy’s statements, and Andy stated that the pastor does not like Andy or his ministry. He then pointed out that I also posted the same information on my blog (which I did).  And then came the accusation (the full text at end of article):

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And so the leader of Love Wins:LGBT wants to refute the “lies”.  On Tuesday, July 25, I posted a question to Andy in that same thread.  I asked Andy when he may be writing his rebuttal to the “lies” that have been written about him.  Soon after, I was blocked by Andy, and he deleted my question. In the same post, he says that he has reached out to “each of these men”; but after asking him a pretty reasonable question, he blocked me.

Andy recently unblocked me so that he could tag me with a new post that he published. (I am however prevented from responding to anything he says). He wrote that he is praying for the three men he has accused of lying.  However, he has yet to either support his claim, or apologize for his accusation.  Here is part of what he wrote in this new post:

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What Will Andy Do?

It seems to me that the leader of Love Wins:LGBT is in a difficult situation.  If he never writes his rebuttal, he fails to show how any of these three men are liars, yet his accusation still remains for all to see on his page.  If he does write a rebuttal, how will he do it, since he would be rebutting his own words?  I don’t believe that Andy McGee, an ordained pastor in the Church of the Nazarene, ever intends to rebut any “lies.”  He cannot, because his very words are what were posted!  See the post Sounding The Alarm to read what he himself has said about various matters that are in question.  And keep in mind, this group is getting the support of their district as well as from the leaders of the denomination.

Retiring General Superintendent JK Warrick suggested at a district assembly recently that Andy should probably seek some kind of approval before posting anything on his website.  Is Andy that reckless that he needs prior approval before making statements about his ministry?   I actually agree with that assessment. It was also disappointing that Dr. Warrick called out Dr. piper for stating his concerns about the ministry of Love Wins:LGBT, a concern shared by many Nazarenes and other Christians.  I would like to know what any of the current active General Superintendents feel about the appropriateness of the Love Wins_LGBT agenda, including their inappropriate exhibit at General Assembly.

It is also very disappointing that Andy McGee and other ordained pastors in the Church of the Nazarene have gone after Dr. Piper and Rev. Jeff Allen for simply posting the very words of Andy McGee and stating their opinions as to the appropriateness and purpose of that ministry.  There are few people in such leadership positions as Dr. Piper that I have a great respect for.  Hardly anyone wants to tackle such difficult issues of our time anymore, yet Dr. Piper is willing to do that, and he does it with sound biblical reasoning.  Yet we see on his page countless examples of crude, insulting personal attacks by “pastors” who cannot reason using God’s word.

They then attack Rev. Jeff Allen, a courageous pastor, for also posting the very words of Andy McGee and giving his biblical opinion.  If we had more principled pastors throughout the denomination who were not afraid to speak the truth, perhaps the Church of the Nazarene would be in much better shape.  Sadly, way too many pastors are silent about these issues. 

Yet those same pastors who criticize us fail to justify Andy’s support of same-sex marriage activists, or his applause of National Coming Out Day, or his approval of the Gay Christian Network conference, or his approval of two female homosexual activists who are married.  Why is that?  I believe they are angry that “the light has exposed the darkness”, and the true agenda of Love Wins:LGBT is coming out (no pun intended). 

Why Can’t “Yes” Be Yes, and “No” Be No, For Andy And His Followers?

On the same thread that Andy wrote his promise to “rebut the lies”, we see a question asked of Andy:

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Andy’s reply was quite predictable:

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The word of the year seems to be: polity.  “Yes, we are in line with the polity of…and blah blah blah” is now the standard, template response to every pointed and direct question asked of Love Wins:LGBT.  It’s defenders use the same language in their support of Love Wins.  You cannot get them to answer a question with clarity. When you read the thread, it is almost as if the question was horrible and unreasonable, and yet, it simply is asking for clarity!  But there will be no clarity for a while, because when it finally comes, then the unmasking will happen, and even the gullible Nazarene leaders will have to admit: the Love Wins:LGBT  ministry is a deceptive fraud.

If you read the thread, you will see some of Andy’s supporters, including Rev. Antonie Holleman, chief writer of the five Holland papers on homosexuality that will soon be translated and sent out for you to come to your own conclusions about the Holland leadership and their homosexuality agenda.  Holleman and other supporters vigorously defend Love Wins_LGBT, even while others are excoriating anyone who dares to question this organization’s intentions.  Instead, the modus operandi is always the same: false accusations and demonization of truth tellers, and certainly this latest one takes the cake!  To accuse someone of lies, when that person simply repeated the very words spoken by the accuser? Surely that takes lots of chutpza!

Did God’s Word Tell A Lie Also?

 And then we see another accusation by Love Wins:LGBT, but this time they went after God’s word itself.  One of the resolutions at General Assembly, CA-724 was passed which simply stated that all people are born male or female.  This is pretty obvious, is a reflection of the biblical account, and I shardly needed to be stated in the Nazarene Manual!  Love Wins:LGBT’s position, however, is that God was wrong about this, and that the Bible did not get it right.  There is apparently a third gender called intersex, which refutes what the Bible says. For some bizarre reason, the resolution was later rescinded and slated for “further study” by the General Superintendents.  (We know what happened in 2013 with the Human Sexuality statement, don’t we, when it was tabled for further study).  This is yet another capitulation to the homosexuality agenda.

Here is how Love Wins:LGBT stated their objections:

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So the apparent position of Love Wins:LGBT is that any claim that God created only male and female and nothing else, is a “plainly seen, easily identified, and blatant lie.”  These are the very words of the leadership team of this organization.  And yet, they are allowed to promulgate this nonsense and much more, and now more recently at their district assembly in Kansas City, with the blessings of the district leadership.  What does this say about discernment and leaders making right decisions?  And this leads me to a final note about all this.

What This Is Really All About

This ultimately is not about Andy McGee, or Love Wins:LGBT.  This is about a holiness denomination that has been taking the wrong turn multiple times over the last several decades, and now has ended up going further down a dark alley. And yet, this ministry is setting a dangerous precedent, and I believe it is surely becoming a powerful influence within the Church of the Nazarene. I can almost see four years from now: Andy’s organization will not be the only one at General Assembly with the rainbow colors of the homosexual affirmation movement.  Oh no, my friends.  This is just the beginning… of the end.

So where is the leadership, and what are they saying about all this?  Hey, I don’t know.  Let me know when you find them, they don’t speak to me anymore.  One thing is for sure: they are in some ways responsible for allowing the enabling of this group and letting them take hold of much of the discussion about the Church of the Nazarene and its future.  The topic of homosexuality should not be the central topic of conversation in the church, but apparently it is in good running to be just that.

This is What You Ought To Do, Andy

Andy, if you are reading this, you have publicly charged three men of posting lies about you; a very serious charge indeed.  So I await your rebuttal of the “lies.”  I also would like to understand how anyone took your own statements “wildly out of context.”  This is what you promised to do.  You need to at least keep your word.

 Otherwise, you need to repent for your own sake, and apologize to those you have maligned with your public words.  I do not hate you.  I do not even dislike you.  Believe it or not, I care about you, Andy. This is not a personal thing; it is a matter of accountability.  I urge you to repent of what you are doing, stop hiding your agenda behind pre-programmed answers, and be completely honest with the people.

Manny Silva

LGBT, What It Really Stands For

(John Henderson)

(Preach the saving gospel to them. Stop lying to them! Stop deceiving them!)

Why don’t we just cut to the chase? Look past all of double-talk and safe words and phrases that are filled with dishonest implications.

LGBT; that “community” (a misnomer itself) that is so persecuted by mean-spirited evangelicals; that poor, misunderstood, super-sensitive group of “normal” people who are so mistreated just because God made them that way and they just cannot help it; that group of innocent folks that God welcomes just as they are with not expectations of ever being anything else but LGBT. Those are the ones!

When you break it down to its own internal evidence, it is not a bit pretty.

“L” – Lesbian: Simply defined, a “lesbian” is “a female homosexual or woman who is primarily attracted SEXUALLY to other women” [“homosexual” defines itself with the emphasis on “sexual”].
“G” – Gay: A borrowed term emitting from overt behaviors that simulate happiness in men behaving in effeminate manners. The delusion is that they are gay or joyful. A “gay” male is a male homosexual who is primarily attracted SEXUALLY to other males.
“B” – Bi-sexual: Male or female who is SEXUALLY attracted to both genders.
“T” – Transgender: Males or females who have a disingenuous gender identity or gender expression that differs from their biological gender that happens to be irreversibly locked into their DNA. This is often expressed through symptoms of Transvestic DISORDER that include, for over a period of at least 6 months, a person who has had recurrent and INTENSE SEXUAL AROUSAL from fantasies, SEXUAL urges or behaviors from cross-dressing (most often when a heterosexual male has fantasies about and/or acts out dressing up in woman’s clothing). The fantasies, SEXUAL urges and behaviors can cause clinically significant distress or impairment in social, occupational, or other important areas of functioning (source: behavioralconnections.org/poc/view_doc.php?type=doc&id=599).
Do you see a thread here? That thread is completely SEXUAL in character and always leads to such behaviors where possible, permitted, and/or encouraged. Specifically, it always involves intense sexual arousal in some form or pattern.
Are not many Nazarene leaders telling us that sexual arousal in this context is not a sin, even officially in the denomination’s Manual? They call it “orientation” but that is just a code word for lust that exists in an especially intense and sinfully focused direction. Consider Jesus’s stern condemnation concerning so much as looking at someone of the opposite gender with lust as being the same as the actual behavior and compare that to the argument in favor of it. Nothing is changed when the same lust is directed at one’s own gender, except there is a specific condemnation in the Scriptures against homosexuality (without qualifications or exceptions) that is ignored or “explained” away. That Bible-defying argument is swallowed up by biblical truth.
Whenever someone uses that acrostic in support of the homosexual agenda, they are in effect showing approval of distorted intense sexual arousals that are of themselves an abomination before God.
Not only is this condition a flagrant sin, it is also related to a medical and psychological pathology distinctive to itself.
One study found that “LGBT clients enter treatment with more severe substance abuse problems, greater psychopathology, and greater medical service utilization when compared with heterosexual clients. When the analyses were stratified based on sex, different patterns of substance use and associated psychosocial characteristics emerged for the LGBT clients” (<http://www.journalofsubstanceabusetreatment.com/…/…/abstract).
We need to stop kidding ourselves and approach LGBT as the pathological problem it is. Do they need help? Most definitely, but they cannot receive the help they need if we insist on looking the other way and pretending something else. They are drowning in serious trouble in major aspects of their lives and insensitive predators are throwing them a floating device with no rope attached. But, all sin across the board is just as bad, no matter how it expresses itself. LGBT is just one of the ways. Jesus saves from sin!
Preach the saving gospel to them, not some watered-down counterfeit that only helps drag their poor souls into hell. Stop lying to them! Stop deceiving them! Show them the Jesus who can completely transform and change their lives for much better than the filth they wallow in. Give them real hope, not some false comfort that encourages them in what they are doing to themselves.
Jesus died that they, too, might be saved—just like He died for all people. There are no allowances for sin but there is always regeneration available. That old saying applies here: “Jesus saves from the guttermost to the uttermost!” This is the way that godly, Christ-centered, scriptural love wins these lost souls.

Sounding The Alarm On Andy McGee And Love Wins:LGBT

The following facts, using the actual communications made by a pastor in the Church of the Nazarene who has an LGBT ministry, ought to bring up great concern from any Bible-believing Christian:

  1. Why is such a ministry active in the Church of the Nazarene that uses symbols and colors associated with the secular gay agenda?
  2. On what merits was this ministry allowed to have a booth at the General Assembly?
  3. Why have the leaders of the denomination not seen this ministry for what it is- a ministry that cannot even give straight answers to questions?
  4. Why have the leadership and so many churches and pastors bowed the knees to the agenda of the LGBT/homosexuality movement?
  5. Will there be more Love Wins-type of churches forming soon, for the purpose of promoting the false, empty gospel that Love Wins:LGBT promotes?
  6. What is this obsession by the Church of the Nazarene now, to focus so much on a particular behavior that is a sin, like any other sin?

So for your consideration, here is some very disturbing information about Andy McGee, founder of Love Wins:LGBT. Andy McGee has: supported gay activists who promote same sex marriage, praised a “gay Christian” conference, praised a racist organization, praised the National Coming Out Day, and has testified that he is bi-sexual.

This report was written by a Nazarene pastor. I believe Andy McGee and his ministry, and other ministries following the pattern of his organization, is causing great harm to the church and leading many down a false path.

 

Who Is Andy McGee?

Although Pastor McGee says all the right sounding things, tossing around generalities about “building bridges” and ambiguously using fine-sounding words such as “love” and “outreach,” I believe that he may not necessarily mean what he wants everyone to assume. There are other individuals who have sounded the alarm with regards to Mr. McGee, but I have purposely not included any of that material. Instead, I am allowing Andy to speak completely for himself through his own tweets, blog comments, and Facebook postings.

Prior to each tweet(s) or post, I will provide the necessary background information regarding the people and events that Pastor McGee is referring to. Please feel free to verify anything I say. Each post comes directly from either Andy’s personal or Love Wins Twitter accounts or Andy’s personal or Love Wins Facebook pages. (The only exception is Andy’s comment on an article written by Dr. Dan Boone.)

For clarity’s sake and to avoid being repetitive, one final note is in order before proceeding any further:

Any time I refer to “gay Christianity,” here’s exactly what I mean: The false belief that a person can be both a godly/obedient Christian and, at the same time, be homosexually active in a monogamous, same-sex “marriage” arrangement. What I do not mean is a Christian who has same-sex attractions, but remains celibate or is currently living in a monogamous, mixed-gender marriage. The latter is generally and rightly considered to be biblical, but the former is definitely not. Moreover, “gay Christianity” is, as you know, 100% at odds with Nazarene doctrine as well.

So, here we go (and this is only a portion of what I found)…

The President of Trevecca Nazarene University wrote an excellent article in defense of Title IX exemptions, which legally protect a Christian school’s constitutional right to not be forced to affirm homosexual behavior and ideology. Rev. Dan Boone’s article is well worth the read. You can click on this link later to read it:

http://www.danboone.me/title-ix-championing-every-kind-of-diversity-but-christian/

Andy McGee posted the following comment at the end of Rev. Boone’s article. Below, I have included the relevant portion of his comment, but it can be viewed in its entirety (including where he clearly identifies himself as the director of Love Wins: LGBT) by using the aforementioned link.

Andy indicates that transgender people do not simply choose “as they see fit” to transition to the opposite of their birth gender, but instead they only make such a life-altering decision after much time spent in prayer. So, as long as a person prays about it, then it apparently becomes okay to switch from male to female or vice versa. This presumably implies that God answers their prayers and somehow gives such individuals the green light to reject their anatomical and genetic gender. This is just another failed attempt at spiritualizing sin.

You might be wondering, why would Dr. Boone have allowed Andy to speak at his school, given what he said in this comment? I obviously can’t answer for Dr. Boone, but I do know that Andy spoke at Trevecca (July 2015) before making this post on Dan’s blog (Jan. 27, 2016.)

(NOTE: Of all of my specific concerns, this one about Dr. Boone is the only one that Andy has answered during our email exchanges. He said, “I was in no way trying to convey that such decisions were Biblically sound choices but was rather asking that a more loving language be used.” However, please read the rest of what I have found before rushing to any conclusions.)

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SUPPORTING A HOMOSEXUAL ACTIVIST

Here’s a favorable tweet supporting homosexual activist Kevin Garcia. Andy is encouraging Mr. Garcia to “keep being a revolutionary.” What revolution might he be leading, you ask? He’s a self-described “gay Christian advocate,” trying to promote the false notion that Christianity and homosexual behavior are compatible. That’s not the kind of “revolution” any Christian should be cheering on!

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SUPPORTING A “GAY CHRISTIAN” CONFERENCE

Here’s Andy tweeting support for a recent GCN Conference (Gay Christian Network) that he attended, which teaches that we really don’t/can’t know or don’t even have to agree as Christians with what the Bible says about homosexuality. And the last thing a morally-adrift world needs right now is more of that kind of confusion and uncertainty. Furthermore, the speaker that he commends in this tweet (Misty Irons) said in her presentation (21 pages posted on the Love Wins’ Facebook page, which I read) that godly Christianity and “gay Christianity” are not mutually exclusive concepts. She also said a lot of other misleading things in the same speech. Pastor Andy might argue that he was only referring to portions of her speech, but then he really should be more specific to avoid giving people the wrong impression. However, he never does that. He only tweets positive things about those who promote homosexual falsehoods, and he only posts negative things about evangelical individuals who are defending the truth — at least, that’s the only kind of tweets that I’ve been able to find. If, as Andy McGee tweeted, Misty really did “hit it out of the park,” then I would have to say that she hit it “out in left field somewhere!” (He also retweets Allyson Robinson who equates the Gay Christian Network Conference with “revival.” However, the full embrace of its theology would actually be the undoing of the church, not any kind of real revival.)

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SUPPORTING ANOTHER SAME SEX MARRIAGE GROUP

This tweet praises a bisexual activist’s speech at TRPinKC (stands for The Reformation Project conference in Kansas City). The TRP goes even further off the deep end than the Gay Christian Network (mentioned above). The TRP unequivocally supports “gay Christianity” and  “same-sex “marriage.” They also go to great lengths to distort the clear teachings of Scripture on homosexuality to make their deceptive case.

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APPROVING OF MATHEW VINES, ANOTHER GAY ACTIVIST

Tweeting his approval of Matthew Vines, the founder of The Reformation Project (mentioned above). Mr. Vines likes to label anyone who disagrees with his false teachings as a “bad tree” producing “bad fruit.” In other words, those telling the truth are the actual “bad guys.” (There’s more on Matthew later in this post)

Here’s a tweet praising a lesbian activist (Vicky Beeching) who was pushing more LGBT contortionist theology at the same Reformation Project Conference. He calls her an “inspiring voice.” A voice inspired by who? Certainly not God! A voice inspiring us to do what? To abandon solid Biblical teaching on the subject of homosexuality! (And I’ve heard her before on YouTube so I know that’s exactly what she’s been doing every chance she gets.)

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SUPPORTING A RACIST MOVEMENT

Retweeting praise for the racist Black Lives Matter movement, which very recently sent a representative to a Harvard University debate to argue in favor of whites killing themselves because of their “white privilege.” I have also included a link to a video of the Harvard debate for your viewing.

http://www.dailywire.com/news/4180/debater-harvard-says-white-people-should-kill-chase-stephens

SUPPORTING VICKY BEECHAM, A LESBIAN ACTIVIST

Here’s a tweet praising a lesbian activist (Vicky Beecham) who was pushing more LGBT contortionist theology at the same Reformation Project Conference. He calls her an “inspiring voice.” A voice inspired by who? Certainly not God! A voice inspiring us to do what? To abandon solid Biblical teaching on the subject of homosexuality! (And I’ve heard her before on YouTube so I know that’s exactly what she’s been doing every chance she gets.)
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SUPPORTING NATIONAL COMING OUT DAY

A Facebook post in support of National Coming Out Day, which encourages people to come out and celebrate their homosexuality. To be out loud and proud…and to publicly embrace the gay lifestyle. Andy describes those who “come out” as being “honest with themselves and with those around them.” Truth is, though, they are falling prey to the world’s lies by succumbing to sin’s deceptiveness!

He also implies that there are only two possible responses that heterosexuals can have towards those that “come out”: Rejection or Celebration. But BOTH are wrong. There is third better way: to lovingly point them to Christ (repentance) and His powerful transformation through the Holy Spirit. After all, I thought we were a holiness denomination, not a sin-celebrating one!

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APPROVING A PRO-HOMOSEXUAL ACTIVIST WHO IS MARRIED TO A WOMAN

Here he tweets his affirmation for open lesbian Jan Shannon, a minister in the liberal UCC denomination, which has completely sold out to the pro-homosexual viewpoint. Following this tweet is a picture of “Rev.” Shannon with her “wife” Deb Roth. So, yet again, Andy gushingly pours out the approval for a woman who is promoting outright heresy and apostasy in her church. Proverbs 28:23 would actually be more appropriate in this case: “Whoever rebukes a person will in the end gain favor rather than one who has a flattering tongue.”

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SUPPORTING ADAM HAMILTON AND RACHEL HELD EVANS, TWO GAY ACTIVISTS

A tweet congratulating Adam (Hamilton) and Rachel (Held Evans) for their appointment to President Obama’s Advisory Council on Faith-Based and Neighborhood Partnerships. So, these two can now go national with their destructive teachings. In my opinion, congratulations are not in order.

Hamilton’s gay activism is well known to me because he is a United Methodist pastor in Leawood, Kansas, and he was promoting a plan at the UMC General Conference during the Summer of 2016 in Portland, Oregon, which (if passed) would have allow for individual districts to abandon the denomination’s historic stance on homosexuality. This terrible plan would enable pastors to 1. Be openly gay/lesbian/bi/transgender themselves, 2. Preach in favor of homosexuality, and 3. Officiate same-sex “marriage” ceremonies even though all of this currently violates their Book of Discipline (the equivalent of the Nazarene Manual). Hamilton has also written books that push the idea that the Bible does not prohibit all kinds of homosexual behavior.

Rachel Held Evans, likewise, supports same-sex marriage, transgenderism, so-called “gay Christianity,” etc. She has spent a lot of time boasting about leaving evangelicalism for episcopalianism, and as most people know, the Episcopalians have gone gay all the way and effectively ripped their denomination apart in the process. Following the tweet below are links to two of her pro-sin/Bible-distorting/confusion-sowing blogs. Rachel’s second article sings the praises of Matthew Vines’ Bible-mangling book God and the Gay Christian. As you might recall from earlier in this post, Matthew is the founder of The Reformation Project, which is a group that holds conferences all across the country to spread the false gospel of “gay Christianity” and distorts the clear teachings of the Bible on homosexuality. You might also remember that Andy McGee recently attended one of the Reformation Project conferences, and he praised its founder, speakers, and the overall impact of their efforts.

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Rachel’s first article: The False Gospel of Gender Binaries:
http://rachelheldevans.com/blog/gender-binaries

Rachel’s second article: God and the Gay Christian Discussion
http://rachelheldevans.com/blog/god-and-the-gay-christian-discussion-week-6-conclusion

ANDY ADMITS TO BEING BISEXUAL

Finally, I saved the “best” for last. In this tweet, Andy links to a video of his personal testimony. It’s not that the video is entirely bad per se, but it’s just that he buys into the whole idea that our identity is primarily based upon our sexual desires instead of Christ and the image of God. You can click on the link immediately below the following tweet and watch the brief 3-1/2 minute video for yourself.

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Here is Andy McGee of “Love Wins: LGBT,” who spoke at our District Assembly [a few years ago] and set up a booth at our General Assembly (6/2017) in his own words: [NOTE: This link takes you to a YouTube video, but it’s no longer viewable. Since I originally pointed it out, Andy has made it private access. But in the video, Andy describes how he’s bisexual. It’s part of some #stillbisexual movement. If you look under that hashtag on YouTube, you’ll see others doing the same thing. I asked him about this during a Q&A session at our District Assembly [a few years ago], and he affirmed that he is bisexual, but non-practicing. It’s also safe to assume that Andy may have removed some of the incriminating posts mentioned above, and that’s exactly why I saved the screen shots as proof.]

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=J-WcbSQBv2g

Taken individually, Pastor McGee might be able to explain away single pieces of the above information, but overall, it is my belief that they paint a comprehensive picture of one who supports unbiblical teachings and is endeavoring to subtly disseminate them throughout our denomination.

ONE FINAL NOTE:

At the Mission 15 Conference held in Kansas City on Feb. 11, 2015, Andy McGee, the Director of Love Wins: LGBT, moderated a panel discussion based upon the following question: “What to Do After a Congregant Says, ‘I’m Gay’?”

Below is a transcript of a very disturbing remark made by one of the panelists: Rev. Rick Power, Hawaii-Pacific District Superintendent.

Rev. Powers was specifically asked the following question: “Does being gay make one ineligible for membership and/or church leadership positions?” (The key portions of his quote are printed in bold, and the most appalling portions come near the end of the citation. So, please completely read this quotation in its entirety before drawing any conclusions.)

Here’s Rev. Power’s verbatim answer to the above-mentioned question (see footnotes below for my comments):

“It keeps occurring to me that my view/our view and our convictions on these issues are shaped by our context and our history in this faith community. You know, this is not, our views are not just dropped down out of heaven into our laps.1 They are mediated to us. Our view of Scripture, the way we interpret it, our definition of marriage and our understanding of human sexuality and our definition of sin and all these things come to us through our tradition.2 So, we might pretend like we have a God’s-eye view of these things,3 but really we’re a product of this stream of [indecipherable word], which is a good thing. I mean, I believe the Spirit is at work, speaking to the church, but it’s always mixed with fallibility and sinfulness so I think we have to be humble in our pronouncements.

“This particular question is, uh, I have encountered as a pastor and because of what we’ve learned about sexual orientation,4 uh, having same sex orientation in no way should hinder a person from membership in the church or leadership, but because of where we are in this journey,5 there probably are some qualifications. And so, when a young man who was an outstanding youth worker came to me and came out to me as a gay man, I had some questions for him. I said, ‘Are you now or have you been active in a same-sex relationship?’ And he answered, ‘no,’ because the call is to sexual purity for heterosexuals and homosexuals. Then, the next question related more specifically to his role as a leader in the church. I said, ‘Are you planning publicly to come out, because if you do, this faith community at the present moment is not able to bear that knowledge. And so, as long as you keep this to yourself, you can continue in your ministry role. We have confidence in you. You’re doing a wonderful job. But at such time that you choose to come out, then we’re not going to be able to bear that at this moment in our history. I hope that will change.’ And then, I think it’s also a pastoral responsibility to let people know that there are other faith communities that will affirm them in a covenantal, monogamous relationship, and that perhaps the Spirit would lead them to such a community.6 That’s not my way of saying, ‘We hope you’ll leave our fellowship’ because I don’t want them to leave. I want them to stay and work with us and be a catalyst for change and growth in this area.7 And so, I hope the Spirit will speak to them and lead them to stay, but I feel like it’s a pastoral responsibility to say that within the kingdom, there are other faith communities that have a different stand on this,8 but here in the Church of the Nazarene, we have definition of marriage, we have a view of homosexual activity, and that’s who we are, and again, that’s where we stand at this point on the journey.”5

Here’s the audio Link to hear this for yourself (http://www.graceandpeacemagazine.org/m15-conference-wednesday-session-4-audio).

It’s the last audio file in the list, entitled: “What to Do After a Congregant Says, ‘I’m Gay’?”

Rev. Power’s words begin at the 17:53 mark and runs until 22:11.

FOOTNOTES:

1, 2, 3 Each of these phrases seem to downplay the inspiration of Scripture, and overemphasize the traditions and ideas of humanity. However, through the Bible, we do have truth “dropped down out of heaven” and “a God’s-eye view” of human sexuality and the definition of sin.

4 Modern understandings of sexual orientation may be somewhat helpful, but ultimately, we’re all oriented towards sin (born with a sin nature). Therefore, much of our contemporary psychobabble is in direct conflict with biblical teachings.

5 Rev. Power repeatedly talks about our “journey” regarding the COTN’s stance on the issue of homosexuality. In speaking of our “definition of marriage” and “view of homosexuality,” he concludes his comments by stating “that’s where we stand at this point on the journey.” But that’s were we should stand FOREVER. The Word of God is NEVER going to change so neither should our beliefs regarding homosexuality.

6 Rev. Powers thinks that in certain instances, it’s his “pastoral responsibility” to point people to churches that affirm homosexual relationships and homosexual behavior. AND he shockingly thinks that the Holy Spirit might actually lead members of the LGBT community to these same apostate churches!? The Holy Spirit is definitely NOT going to direct anyone to a church that lies to them and leads them to hell. The Devil might do this, but not the Holy Spirit…NEVER!

7 Based upon portions of this quotation, I can’t help but wonder what kind of “change and growth in this area” that Rev. Power might have in mind. Personally, I don’t think his ideas for change are in accord with the doctrines of the Church of the Nazarene.

8 Once again, Rev. Power refers to his “pastoral responsibility” to let people know about other churches that have “a different stand on [homosexuality].” And shockingly, he says that they are “within the kingdom.” NO, THEY ARE NOT! These deceiving churches are most certainly and completely outside of the kingdom of God.

Church of the Nazarene Adopts New Human Sexuality Resolution, Votes to Dumb Down Sin

Compromise- a bad compromise- has happened again, as the General Assembly of the Church of the Nazarene removes clear language that condemns the sin of homosexuality. Instead of retaining a hard but honest truth, the previous statement on Human Sexuality has been further eroded, paving the way for another watering down of biblical truth four years from now.
CA-701_BOG

The following response by a sister in the Lord speaks for me and many other Nazarenes who have been watching and hoping for truth to prevail.

“As I head off to Chicago today for meetings, it will be with a heavy heart. The church is changing in the name of progress, and that’s not a good thing.

While there may be varying degrees of sin in man’s eyes, in God’s eyes there are not. One is as bad as another.

One saint said yesterday that God calls out sin. He calls a drunk a drunkard, a prostitute a whore, and a man who will not work, lazy. He says in his Word that homosexuality is an abomination, and the shedding of innocent blood murder and yet our church feels these words too strong, too offensive and too exclusive.

Where were the sanctified saints yesterday? Why would resolution 701 pass overwhelmingly in a holiness church? What part of the word perversion don’t we understand? Perhaps a refresher on its meaning will help:

“The alteration of something from its original course, meaning or state to a distortion or corruption of what was first intended” is its definition. It sounds like the sin nature of man to me. We are ALL perverse beings in our lostness. Our perverse nature is the very reason Christ came and went to the cross.

We have drifted far from the message of salvation. We’ve negated the need for the blood bought church to preach the need for repentance. “Why repent? You’re fine” we cry. “We LOVE you as you are. There is no more need for you to come out from among them and be ye separate. We’ll come to you. We will live among you. Your people will be our people.”

We twist and we turn the Word of God into a different gospel. And I’m sickened by it all.

I wonder what Almighty God thinks of our church today. One of the GS’ stated yesterday that God is pleased with us. I hardly think so. In fact, if I were to guess, I’d say we are seconds (if not closer) to be spewed from His mouth.

May God have mercy on us all.”

(Kelli Frazier)

As much as I am not surprised at this continued meltdown of biblical doctrine, it still pains me greatly. What I want to know is what was the reasoning behind this decision. In fact, I would like to know what was the BIBLICAL reasoning. What got into the heads of the folks in the committee, and then finally the general assembly voting body? What got into the heads of the General Superintendents? After all, they drafted this resolution. What drove them to come up with a resolution that essentially takes away from an accurate, biblical description of homosexuality and the perversion that it is! Was God’s word too harsh for them? Are they ashamed at what God’s word describes homosexuality as, that it is an abomination, that it is a perversion of God’s intent for proper human sexuality?

Are they afraid of offending someone? Don’t they know that the Gospel is an offense to those who are perishing? “For the word of the cross is folly to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.” 1 Cor. 1:18.

The news of Holland and their “progress and plans for acceptance of homosexuals n the full body of Christ has fallen on deaf ears. The Generals have tuned me out, even an old family friend, and do not care to answer me, nor many Nazarenes who write to them. They are too busy watering down doctrinal statements I guess. And this is not the last troublesome resolution. There is more watering down to be done. This only the next step; wait another four years to see how hard the house will fall.

And so it is. They are all intent on staying on this politically correct, man-pleasing path. They will gain favor with the world for this. In the meantime, they allow groups such as Love Wins:LGBT to promote their deceptive “gospel” message. They cater to homosexuality just like the secular world; they are no different. They talk about love, love, love. And yet, they have forgotten that love without obedience is not love. 2nd John says in verse 6: “And this is love: that we walk in obedience to his commands.” No obedience, no love. Just hollow words.

Yes, this General Assembly will be more remembered for a perverted sinful behavior, than for any hollow-sounding resolutions, sermons, or worship services. Oh, they will be slapping each other’s backs and gushing over the latest and greatest “man of God.”

But they have been duped, the foxes have been let into the hen house, and souls will be led to hell because of it. And yet, perhaps maybe, just maybe, God has called someone from within the halls of power, to stand like Martin Luther and say, stop! Enough is enough.

But if nothing turns the ship around, at least our conscience will be clean before God.

 

“Unless I am convinced by Scripture and plain reason – I do not accept the authority of the popes and councils, for they have contradicted each other – my conscience is captive to the Word of God. I cannot and I will not recant anything for to go against conscience is neither right nor safe. God help me. Amen.” Martin Luther

The Nazarene “Love Wins LGBT” Group Clarifies Their Intentions

Update on Wednesday, June 28

I have received enough information that leaves in doubt the accuracy of the FaceBook post by Andy McGee that was reported by me.  A pastor, Chet Todd, has confirmed to me that he spoke with Andy shortly after that posting, and testified to me that Andy was upset that the original question to him was edited to make it look like it was something that was not.  Andy then proceeded to delete his answer.  I am accepting Chet’s testimony on this, and will post completely as Andy wishes to, or leave it here with a this explanation for others who have read this sin the past to see.

In all my nearly 400 articles, I have never had to retract something, other than minor corrections of information.  But when it cannot be clearly shown to be true without a doubt, I will correct what needs to be corrected.  (This in no way changes my opposition to the ministry of the Love Wins:LBGT group and how Andy McGee is promoting his positions)

Manny Silva

 

 

Original Article:

The Love Wins:LGBT group operates under the auspices of the Trinity Family MidTown Church of the Nazarene. They have had a presence at the General Assembly since at least 2013, where they have presented a workshop about their “ministry” to the LGBT community, including a booth last week displaying their many colors.

In a stunning moment of candor, the group responded to a question on a FaceBook post, which asked about their intentions. The text is shown here for clarity, and the original post is also shown.

Question:
Is it your hope that the Church of the Nazarene will eventually become a welcoming church (and rid of language such as “perversion” when referring to gender identity)? Are you pushing for having open and affirming stances for Nazarene congregations?

Love Wins:LGBT

That’s the goal. We hope that the church will welcome ALL in. ALL.

 

I’ll let you come to your own conclusions.

Update on Tuesday, June 27: In the spirit of fairness

Andy McGee has disagreed with what I posted, and he says that it is “fake news”.  Andy believes that the question was edited after Andy responded, and therefore distorted the meaning of his answer.  I will honestly say that I am not sure whether I accept that explanation.  I am doing some research to verify some other things about this situation, now that Andy has contradicted what looks like something obvious. I have my own questions in response:

1. Andy, why did you not respond with an immediate refutation of the person who asked the question, instead of simply deleted your answer?
2. Why would someone who himself has the LGBT colors in his own profile (an apparent ally), want to trick Andy with something like that?

There are many, many questions that, for me and many others, have not been fully answered by Andy and Love Wins:LGBT about their ministry.  I continue to seek those clear answers from them.  I will be writing a post soon that will address the LGBT / homosexuality issue again, not only with regards to Andy’s group, but the entire denomination.  In all this, I will say that not once have I been angry at Andy personally, nor do I dislike him personally in any way.  That is not me, regardless of what others may say about me.  I may sound harsh at times, but that harshness is always directed at the things that are being promoted in the Church of the Nazarene, or at the behavior of a person- and are intended to hopefully correct anyone who is in error- according to Scripture, not according to Manny Silva.

The Fallacy of “Orientation”

(John Henderson)

There is no need to belabor an introduction. It is clear what this is about. “Orientation” in this context is “the direction of someone’s interest or attitude, especially sexual,” regarding homosexuality. It is an active—non-dormant—attitude or inclination. It is a settled way of thinking or feeling about one’s interest in homosexuality; an interest in or liking homosexuality; a decisive preference for homosexuality based on understanding its nature.

Biologically, “a simple and singular determinant for sexual orientation has not been conclusively demonstrated and various studies point to different, even conflicting positions.” Said another way, one can readily prove ones gender biologically but cannot demonstrate homosexual orientation biologically. Self-selection bias and other pitfalls always afflict any study, no matter how “controlled” it might seem to be.
That puts the entire issue in the catch-all category of assumption and speculation based on predisposed interpretations of inconclusive data. Researchers like that because they often come to the end of their own abilities to understand, the data becomes unmanageable, and they want to go home to supper or get a paper published. Hiding behind a “margin of error” doesn’t solve the problem. That is also capriciously predetermined.

I know that on a personal level. I wanted to get done with that doctoral program and was weary of running into walls on the dissertation just trying to make it all come together. I finally sorted through that cardboard box of data I had accumulated, pulled out stuff that seemed to make sense, wrote a bunch of gibberish that fit my chosen narrative, and it sailed through approval. It is somewhere in Vanderbilt’s archives the last I checked and nobody cares one wit about it, including me. Confession is good for the soul, so I am told. Just the same, it still turned out pretty good and may be useful to someone down the way.

So, when I claim that a theologian is wrong that steps aside from the Scriptures and enters a philosophical arena in making conclusions about homosexual orientation as being amoral or non-sinful, I am on pretty solid ground there. Philosophy assumes everything and proves nothing.

Of course, some of them are already well-practiced in that approach. They are just as cock-eyed when they claim that some form of evolutionism can explain creation or that the Bible is only inspired where it refers to soteriology (salvation). This is just another leg on their stool of compromise and error.

Biology and philosophy aside, let us consider just the Scriptures on that matter. We shall still feed off of a simple definition of “orientation”: the direction of someone’s interest or attitude regarding homosexuality… a settled way of thinking or feeling about one’s interest in homosexuality; an interest in or liking homosexuality; a decisive preference for homosexuality based on understanding its nature. In short form: It is how one decides or chooses to think—a chosen and trained mindset or worldview.
The Bible nowhere makes allowances for mental or moral entrapment other than that we are born in sin and need salvation. The continuous thread of the Scriptures is to the end that we might be saved. In that way, the whole Bible is soteriological in nature. It defines and condemns sin, pronounces judgment, and offers redemption in Christ.

Orientation in the scriptural mode is always about that which comes out of the predisposition to sin, the carnal nature. Orientation is always connected to sin.

The Bible tells us plainly that temptation—the only amoral condition possible—actually emits or is fed by previous conduct and disposition:

James 1:14-15 – “…each one is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desires. Then when desire conceives, it gives birth to sin, and when sin is full grown, it gives birth to death.”

I was not a thief growing up. The temptation to steal never haunts me. That is true of many things. The things that I became involved in prior to being born again are the very things the devil still hits me with from time to time after more than 65 years. Only redeeming grace comes to my rescue. That is what James means here.

There are many passages that deal with the thoughts of the heart—not merely the mind. Jesus tells us that one can commit adultery or murder another person without ever engaging in the behavior. They are attitudes of lust and hate. Even the Ten Commandments address that—you shall not desire, or long for, what belongs to your neighbor.

We would be very wise if we stay with the Scriptures and seek the lost accordingly. If we coddle them in their sins, we are not leading them to Christ. Instead, we are pushing open the door to Hell for them to rush in by means of treacherous and menacing deception.

The LGBT Face of the Church of the Nazarene: Celebrating Sin

The LGBTQFace of the Church of the Nazarene

What an absolute disgrace!  The 2017 General Assembly of the Church of the Nazarene is allowing the celebration of sin!

I believe LGBT and homosexuality will be the lasting legacy of the 2017 General Assembly of the Church of the Nazarene, and will be the catalyst for splitting this denomination wide open.​  Along with the shameful resolutions introduced by the Holland district, as well as by the New England District, homosexuality is well on its way to being celebrated by many more Nazarenes. The train wreck that is apparently happening in the Holland district will soon become more evident here in the states.  Along with the recurring Roman Catholic themes seen in 2009 and 2013, the face of the Church of the Nazarene is becoming more like the United Methodist Church or the Episcopalians, perhaps with no chance of returning to what once was a Holiness denomination. It no longer is that.  It’s not enough to proclaim holiness.  You have to live it, you have to walk the walk. And the leaders of the denomination, from the Generals all the way down to the district leaders (with exceptions) have absolutely failed in their responsibility to protect the flock, and this is the result.  This is your church now.

Nazarenes, are you still proud to be a Nazarene​?

​ Is this what holiness unto the Lord means?​

An LGBT booth set up at General Assembly.
They were there in 2013.​
Why would they be allowed to be at a General Assembly of a Holiness denomination?


The “I’m Nazarene, too” FaceBook group​


​ This Nazarene group has over 2800 members, some of whom I am friends with.  Not sure if a few of them understand what this group really su​pports.  he logo is not exactly one I would use to represent a holiness people.

Here is their description:

This group was born out of discussions about the diversity of ideas and people who call themselves Nazarene. Sometimes, events (many of which make the news) may lead us to think that there is little room in the Church of the Nazarene for dissent, and sometimes this leads to talk of “leaving.” However, we are Nazarenes, too. We may be new to the church, we may be third- or fourth- generation preachers’ kids. We may have never missed a Sunday or Wednesday night. We may have left the Church for a while. We may still only occasionally attend. We serve as pastors, students, professionals, farmers, writers, teachers, and in many other ways. We may believe in evolution. We may affirm 6-day creation. We may believe that our gay friends are as fully Christian as we are. We may believe that homosexual acts are sinful. We may enjoy a glass of wine. Or we may not. Our theology may not match precisely that of the powers that be. Or maybe it does. We may be silent. We may be a loud and critical voice. We may turn the tables. We may stir the pot. We may calm the waters. We may rock the boat. But the one thing we have in common is that we are part of the Nazarene Church, and we are not leaving–at least not yet. We may be criticized, we may someday be ostracized, but we will remain the radical and prophetic proclaimers of the Kingdom in which the Church of the Nazarene dwells.

What is happening to the Church of the Nazarene?  And why do so few even seem to care?